Dismantle Public Education

Bardan wrote:Just as when he is older I will buy him his first car , however he will have to take responsibility for its upkeep.

I believe Sam, my boy, will value is car more because he will have earned it. You realise of course that by finding ways to help him earn his way it means more work for me as a parent than if I just gave him a cash hand-out? I'm not taking an easy road here.

I am happy if he chooses to go to uni to pay his start up costs but not for his living/entertainment.

Once again, I think that the kids will care more about every dollar spent if it is their own.

I think life is like this when you grow up and teaching children the opposite of how to value and aquire (Easter, Christmas, Birthdays, Fairies,..) delays their development if not retarding them beyond repair.

I agree, but you do remind me of my dad, so I should.

Actually you asked for an "education system" and the answer I happened to give was a series of national educational systems.

And, as I said right before you fell silent on this issue: If that was satisfactory to you, yes it was easy.



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Reading is fine. Researching I leave to you. Put your ideas on the this table! I can't imagine you'd reciprocate if I sent you away to read John Taylor Gatto or Maria Montessori or ACT's latest book Free To Learn. That would be a cop out for me making my own case.

I have put my case forward and I provided references, your "counter arguments" show your lack of knowledge in this field. This means I have done the research... that you fail to do so is your problem, your fault; it is not mine.

You and I already have worked hard on a template for agreement. I'm just wary that you don't like the corner you're talking yourself into and want to pull a new debate out of the woodwork. That's all.

I have not painted myself into any corner whatsoever. There are no new arguments.

Sure thing. So if we establish that upward mobility was more than a little bit possible for our ancestors prior to the state take-over of schools then you will conceed?

No... but if you could prove that upward mobility was equal or "roughly" equal before "free, unrestricted" education... well sure.

Actually you asked for an "education system" and the answer I happened to give was a series of national educational systems.

And, as I said right before you fell silent on this issue: If that was satisfactory to you, yes it was easy.

The fact that I offered my counter-arguments to whatever you would provide in the body of the challenge (Finland and NZ) would give most people a fairly strong hint as to what I was after. Namely, national education programmes, not nation-wide education programmes.

I can think of one historic system that allowed upward mobility (actually depended on it) and educated the poor and rich dependent only on their merits. Of course, it disadvantaged the poor and stupid so it still doesn't stand-up.

I agree, but you do remind me of my dad, so I should.

Good looking?

On that mouthguard point...we did the same thing with the 12yo girl and she refused to spend the money. She valued not folding some extra washing more highly and that was fine fall all concerned.

If we just threw money at her without consequence do you think she would care to spend it wisely? I believe we would have been $10 short and that her mouthguard would have been down the back of the couche by sundown never to be seen again.

I have put my case forward and I provided references, your "counter arguments" show your lack of knowledge in this field

Sitting duck that I am...blow me away, sir. Unleash the content of the journal articles you bandy about. Show us all the great failure that is the commodificaton of education. Hit me with your rythem stick.

I have not painted myself into any corner whatsoever. There are no new arguments

I concur that my origional ones remain fully shagadelic and untarnished.

you ensure that we stratify future generations according to the wealth of the current.
Because there was no such thing as upward mobility and nouveau riche before state schools came along?
But if we establish that people were able to raise above their station previous to 1876 will that refute your point?
Not at all... because I said "little" not "no".
Sure thing. So if we establish that peole were able to raise above their station en mass previous to the nationalisation of education then this would do?Unless you ignore societal shifts akin to revolutions and wars, why not?
Sure thing. So if we establish that upward mobility was more than a little bit possible for our ancestors prior to the state take-over of schools then you will conceed?
No... but if you could prove that upward mobility was equal or "roughly" equal before "free, unrestricted" education... well sure.

But wouldn't I then be arguing against my stated position? Your modifications have changed your origional concern beyond recognition. We were talking about the hell of pre-socialised learning but now you're talking about the hell prior to "free, unrestricted" education??

Surely you would be glad to admit that state-run schools were not what saved us from 'social reprodution' if I demonstrate mass upward mobility prior to socialisation?

would give most people a fairly strong hint as to what I was after. Namely, national education programmes, not nation-wide education programmes.

How about the explicit words of your challange? Were they a strong hint too? Because that's what I was addressing with my tutors examples.

You've got to help me out here dude. Don't come to the Rick Fish'n Chip Shop, order a scoop of chips, and then complain when you get it because you were hinting at a potatoe fritter.

Thankyou, please come again.

Surely you would be glad to admit that state-run schools were not what saved us from 'social reprodution' if I demonstrate mass upward mobility prior to socialisation?

Yes, I would. So go for it.

How about the explicit words of your challange? Were they a strong hint too? Because that's what I was addressing with my tutors examples.

That's really the thing. My challenge was pretty clear.

Surely you would be glad to admit that state-run schools were not what saved us from 'social reprodution' if I demonstrate mass upward mobility prior to socialisation?Yes, I would. So go for it.

The colonisation of Canada, South Africa, Australia, New Zealand and North America. Many a family broke free of what had been hundreds of years of peasent life to become pioneeirs with their own lands and properties and sufferage. And all of this took place before the educated and the schools were siezed by the state.

May I continue?

How about the explicit words of your challange? Were they a strong hint too? Because that's what I was addressing with my tutors examples.

That's really the thing. My challenge was pretty clear.

So let's roll with the tutors example and when you express satisfaction I guess it'll be my turn to challange you in return. If you don't like the tutors I can generate a new answer but I think it's what you ordered.

Bardan wrote:
So let's roll with the tutors example and when you express satisfaction I guess it'll be my turn to challange you in return. If you don't like the tutors I can generate a new answer but I think it's what you ordered.

The thing you seem to fail to understand is that providing a list of tutors doesn't prove anything about a superior market driven education system to the current public school system. All it proves is that tutors exist, which nobody was disputing.

Again, nice strawman though.

The thing you seem to fail to understand is that providing a list of tutors doesn't prove anything about a superior market driven education system to the current public school system. All it proves is that tutors exist, which nobody was disputing.

Well why didn't somebody say something before?

Is it not a market model?

Not an education system?

Not more successful for society, holistically speaking, than the Queen's version?

Throw me some feedback here, people. I thought we had QED.

PROVE that a bunch of tutors are more successful than public education. You've completely failed to do so yet, and haven't even tried. All you've done is say "Look, here's a bunch of tutors. They're way better than public schools".


Well guess what? Eating horse shit makes kids perform better in IQ tests like the Stanford-Binet Intelligence scale than publicly schooled children. You want proof? Get fucked, I'm not about to do your research for you!

PROVE that a bunch of tutors are more successful than public education.

I was taking it for granted that we agreed!
We're cool with the other two points though right?

Well guess what? Eating horse shit makes kids perform better in IQ tests like the Stanford-Binet Intelligence scale than publicly schooled children. You want proof? Get fucked, I'm not about to do your research for you!


Working on that as we speak. When does the IQ start to respond to the treatment?

ps How do you get them to eat it??

You rape them. I don't know, who cares, it just works.

Okay, so that response just justified any qualms my partner and I may have had in sharing family photos on Tartarus. Thanks for that, champ.

Bardan wrote:Okay, so that response just justified any qualms my partner and I may have had in sharing family photos on Tartarus. Thanks for that, champ.

Oh shit! Well, I'd be lying if I said I cared. But my point remains. If you rape children to get them to eat horse shit, they'll turn out smarter than public school dumbasses. And I don't need to provide you with evidence, that's your job.

I'm not going to engage with you anymore.

You know why.

Talking about raping my kid doesn't make for a good caption for his photo or an ethical counter in debate. Those who hold the same conviction, please live by it as well and don't reward this behaviour or enable it by interacting.

Lolkiddyrape.

That's fine, you weren't engaging with me anyway, you're just making a bunch of claims and refusing to back them up with evidence. That, by the way, isn't what argument or debate is.

Okaaaay at what point does it suggest ANYWHERE in this thread that your child eats horseshit or that anyone here implied raping your child!

Your response to how I bring up my child regarding fiscal responsibility sux BIG TIME

....My parents did it hard and yet, when I turned 15 my dad brought me my first Car( $150.00) ...and NO my son won't have a car that corners like it's on rails either ...what he will have, is a vehicle that will need to be maintained and to this end he will learn from his father a multitude of mechanical knowledge...he will have to work in order to "upgrade"his car MY parenting theory is MY fathers " happy to give you hand up Ronaldo, but never a hand out"
I can happily report that in my time with my first car I installed a water pump, fixed a starter motor ,and STILL perform my own oil changes and air filter scenarios.Fuck I can change a tyre so fast i should be in a indy 500 pit.
It is so fucked up in my opinion to get kids so bloody obsessed with moolah...
AND just whilst I'm in such a foul mood ......MOUTHGUARDS for ANY sport in NZ are fucking FREE at the start of the season for children.

woody67 wrote:
AND just whilst I'm in such a foul mood ......MOUTHGUARDS for ANY sport in NZ are fucking FREE at the start of the season for children.

Yes but you're just turning them into future dole bludgers if you let them have free mouthguards.

The colonisation of Canada, South Africa, Australia, New Zealand and North America. Many a family broke free of what had been hundreds of years of peasent life to become pioneeirs with their own lands and properties and sufferage. And all of this took place before the educated and the schools were siezed by the state.

May I continue?

Oh shitfuck no!

Those are societal revolutions!

You really are shit at this. I am about done with you.

Okaaaay at what point does it suggest ANYWHERE in this thread that
anyone here implied raping your child!

It's enough for me to make the case that jokes about child rape are repulsive and that I don't believe in debating on those terms. That I infer a personal attack from this context, however, is not much harder for a mother to understand.

It is so fucked up in my opinion to get kids so bloody obsessed with moolah...

We're a young family of five striving to treat one another with mutual respect. We don't think we're fucked up. I've explained why we do what we do and if you're so sure of yourself why don't you gently teach us a better way? Diaz was bad, but the temper of this thread and references to my family are much worse.

AND just whilst I'm in such a foul mood ......MOUTHGUARDS for ANY sport in NZ are fucking FREE at the start of the season for children.

Can you post a map to the cornocopia please?

Oh shitfuck no!
Those are societal revolutions!
You really are shit at this. I am about done with you.

Your teaching style isn't inspiring me to learn. Do you talk this way to your students?

If I've gone wrong please help me out, I'm quite willing to change my mind. It's only that abuse isn't the means to doing that.

If you can see that the upward mobility of the pionneirs of New Zealand etc cannot be a counter example I'll probably have to conceed my point.

Bardan wrote:


Your teaching style isn't inspiring me to learn. Do you talk this way to your students?

If I've gone wrong please help me out, I'm quite willing to change my mind. It's only that abuse isn't the means to doing that.

If you can see that the upward mobility of the pionneirs of New Zealand etc cannot be a counter example I'll probably have to conceed my point.

No I don't, that is a stupid question.

Maybe not, but being less sensitive is a start.

The upward mobility of immigrants was because of a societal shift/revolution equal to (roughly equal to?) the industrial revolution.

While it was by-and-large not related to education, it is not a fair example.

Your teaching style isn't inspiring me to learn. Do you talk this way to your students?
No I don't, that is a stupid question.

Well then surely you are following double standards. If I'm doing something to offend you let's talk about that.

If I've gone wrong please help me out, I'm quite willing to change my mind. It's only that abuse isn't the means to doing that.Maybe not, but being less sensitive is a start.

I'm sticking around in a forum where the best debater never elaborates but tells me I really am shit and the rest start huge threads about me being a moron while others counter me with child-rape suggestions.

I only just got here but I think anybody "sensitive" either never came here to start with or has long since moved on.

If you can see that the upward mobility of the pionneirs of New Zealand etc cannot be a counter example I'll probably have to conceed my point.
The upward mobility of immigrants was because of a societal shift/revolution equal to (roughly equal to?) the industrial revolution.
While it was by-and-large not related to education, it is not a fair example

I'm sorry, I'm still not clear. Aren't I supposed to be finding a societal shift that's as big as the IR? The bigger the better the example, because you wont be satisfied with the (many) examples of individual people who are counter-factual to your beliefs.

You want to see social reproduction overturned but wont let my examples be too big or too small, but somewhere inbetween? But if we agree to do that are we not already admitting that social reproduction has been historically assulted in large ways and small ways already?

Barden when your child signs up for a new season of say soccer,rugby,hockey etc , they are isussed with a mouthguard I think the initiative is funded by ACC.

Look, in regard to teaching our kids financial respect you and I are pretty much on the same page, except perhaps in regard to what I think parental responsibilities are ie: I think that it is my job to ensure my son is fed properly ,clothed appropiatly and exercises his brain and physical self, to this end I pay for the tools he needs to acheive this because I am the parent.Placing too much emphasise on money can IMO create the very adult you are trying to avoid...

Public forums are fun and need to be taken with a grain of salt, this is after all not real life and comments made have no real power unless you let them, I think you are letting them, take a step back and relax a bit, demanding that people debate with you in a certain way or gently do this or honourably do that can come off sounding quite controlling, especially when you are the newbie, and to quote an old saying "if you cant handle the heat.."

I would like to take this opportunity to thank you for the fact that without a doubt you have increased the frequency of posts in this forum.

Barden when your child signs up for a new season of say soccer,rugby,hockey etc , they are isussed with a mouthguard I think the initiative is funded by ACC.

Well soccer didn't but I wouldn't know for the others. But the mouthguards I'm talking about were for school.

I would like to take this opportunity to thank you for the fact that without a doubt you have increased the frequency of posts in this forum.

Thanks mate, it is exactly what we set out to do.

demanding that people debate with you in a certain way or gently do this or honourably do that can come off sounding quite controlling, especially when you are the newbie

They are requests, not demands. Nobody is forced to refrain from child-rape jibes or derogatory threads or even writing about me on Smile City (yes, I saw that.) But those are my standards for debate and I'm not so short of open honest conversation opportunities that I need to consort with abusive people.

The truth is that my partner and I intended to increase traffic on Tartarus and bring in some new views because she and her friends felt it was getting a bit dull. But the reaction to my beliefs has not been the civil response we counted on. Flat Tack has left the forum over this.

Look, in regard to teaching our kids financial respect you and I are pretty much on the same page, except perhaps in regard to what I think parental responsibilities are ie: I think that it is my job to ensure my son is fed properly ,clothed appropiatly and exercises his brain and physical self,

I'm not sure how you think that puts us on a different page?

to this end I pay for the tools he needs to acheive this because I am the parent.

Again, I also pay. It's just that we let the kids express their preferences and be involved in the spending decisions that are, after all, their business.

Placing too much emphasise on money can IMO create the very adult you are trying to avoid...

We place an emphasis on value, not money.

They're going to find out about negotiation and work and spending wisely and cleaning up after themselves one day. Why put that day off until they're teenagers and it hits them all at once? Maybe that's why we get teenage devience. My kids are smart enough and capable enough to learn about thrift and value now. I cannot in good conscience stand in their way or invent mythological economies like fairies.

Hey Bardan...Bummer that flatty left here...I liked her way of thinking...

What do you think of the Discovery One Schools that want to come into play...I know there is one in Christchurch, and there will be one submitted to the Ministry of Education today, to be based in Whakatane, where the curriculum is based around students' own interests and passions with individual learning plans, and where Students are taught self-management skills and are in control of what, when and how they learn...

IMO, my daughter would have succeeded well in something like a Discovery School,all those years ago, rather then the mainstream school she attended and hated with a passion, right from Primary School, as it was boring for her...