Tartarus

Would you like to react to this message? Create an account in a few clicks or log in to continue.

The Underworld Of Lightly (& Logically) Moderated Discussion & Debate


+11
woody67
dabiarch
Psalter
Diaz
Waireka
____
ChelseaT
superarmy
flat_tack
master5o1
Bardan
15 posters

    Dismantle Public Education

    flat_tack
    flat_tack
    Giant
    Giant


    Dismantle Public Education - Page 2 Empty Re: Dismantle Public Education

    Post  flat_tack Mon Mar 22, 2010 7:10 pm

    Bardan wrote:Here is the challenge: Find me any primary and secondary education system that relies on a market model education system and has greater success for society as a whole than a public system.

    Here's 30+ from http://www.tutorshome.co.nz/

    Tutoring Subjects
    Accounting (83)
    Art (34)
    Biology (167)
    Chemistry (170)

    Commerce (48)
    Computer (136)
    Design (12)
    Economics (75)

    Engineering (34)
    English (485)
    French (81)
    Geography (35)

    German (34)
    History (64)
    Italian (12)
    Japanese (57)

    Korean (6)
    Language (47)
    Law (25)
    Management (35)

    Mandarin (63)
    Maori (6)
    Marketing (18)
    Maths (598)

    Music (83)
    Philosophy (10)
    Physics (195)
    Science (182)

    Spanish (37)
    Sport (7)
    Statistics (91)
    Others (199)

    I will counter with Finland, and New Zealand. Now you know my argument, you should find it very easy.

    If that was satisfactory to you, yes it was easy. Smile


    Wait, what? Explain to me how that's a greater success for society as a whole?
    Bardan
    Bardan
    Giant
    Giant


    Dismantle Public Education - Page 2 Empty Re: Dismantle Public Education

    Post  Bardan Mon Mar 22, 2010 7:16 pm

    An educated society is a more successful society.

    Go on, argue that we're better off without those skills and disciplines in our society.
    ____
    ____
    Nymph
    Nymph


    Dismantle Public Education - Page 2 Empty Re: Dismantle Public Education

    Post  ____ Mon Mar 22, 2010 7:19 pm

    Bardan wrote:An educated society is a more successful society.

    Go on, argue that we're better off without those skills and disciplines in our society.

    Dismantle Public Education - Page 2 Strawman

    Nobody is even close to arguing that. You however were asked to show a country that has a market model education system that works better than public education, and in return, you show, what, a handful of tutors(half of whom appear to be students themselves currently in a public school system you want abolished, so they wouldn't even exist under your plan)?

    Way to argue your point there, br4 Smile
    Bardan
    Bardan
    Giant
    Giant


    Dismantle Public Education - Page 2 Empty Re: Dismantle Public Education

    Post  Bardan Mon Mar 22, 2010 7:52 pm

    You however were asked to show a country that has a market model education system that works better than

    I was asked for a system and gave 30. I was asked that they be private, and they are. I was asked that they be of greater success than public education, and they are.

    Those are national systems, if that's important. Hell, they're local and they're international systems too if you wish to think of it. But I'm not sure that was what was being asked nor what difference lines on a map make to the matter?
    ____
    ____
    Nymph
    Nymph


    Dismantle Public Education - Page 2 Empty Re: Dismantle Public Education

    Post  ____ Mon Mar 22, 2010 7:58 pm

    Very first tutor on that link, Amy Moorhouse, can't construct a sentence properly and you expect me to believe that people like her are good for the education of the entire country?
    Waireka
    Waireka
    River-God
    River-God


    Dismantle Public Education - Page 2 Empty Re: Dismantle Public Education

    Post  Waireka Mon Mar 22, 2010 8:15 pm

    ____ wrote:Very first tutor on that link, Amy Moorhouse, can't construct a sentence properly and you expect me to believe that people like her are good for the education of the entire country?

    I agree, yet I have little faith in the majority of public system teachers in New Zealands ability to construct a sentence properly either (you know that doesn't include you Psalter).
    flat_tack
    flat_tack
    Giant
    Giant


    Dismantle Public Education - Page 2 Empty Re: Dismantle Public Education

    Post  flat_tack Mon Mar 22, 2010 8:25 pm

    OKies. Hows about a comprehensive (at least as comprehensive as NZ's public school system - ie, literacy, numeracy etc) at least national system present in a society (contemporary or historical) that does not have a standardised, homogenised, (pasteurised?) government controlled schooling system, where all or at least a very great majority of the free peoples receive a minimum of education greater than what we currently do in the public system of New Zealand?

    Can you give an example of that? I think that was the intended question.
    Psalter
    Psalter
    River-God
    River-God


    Dismantle Public Education - Page 2 Empty Re: Dismantle Public Education

    Post  Psalter Mon Mar 22, 2010 8:37 pm

    Bardan wrote:You however were asked to show a country that has a market model education system that works better than

    I was asked for a system and gave 30. I was asked that they be private, and they are. I was asked that they be of greater success than public education, and they are.

    Those are national systems, if that's important. Hell, they're local and they're international systems too if you wish to think of it. But I'm not sure that was what was being asked nor what difference lines on a map make to the matter?

    Society as a whole...and you're wrong.

    Deliberately I think.
    Bardan
    Bardan
    Giant
    Giant


    Dismantle Public Education - Page 2 Empty Re: Dismantle Public Education

    Post  Bardan Mon Mar 22, 2010 8:45 pm

    Society as a whole...and you're wrong.
    Deliberately I think.


    I do think the systems I mentioned benefit society more as a whole. Are you saying you don't agree? Why?

    OKies. Hows about a comprehensive (at least as comprehensive as NZ's public school system - ie, literacy, numeracy etc) at least national system present in a society (contemporary or historical) that does not have a standardised, homogenised, (pasteurised?) government controlled schooling system, where all or at least a very great majority of the free peoples receive a minimum of education greater than what we currently do in the public system of New Zealand?

    Ancient Athens.
    What's that prove?
    ____
    ____
    Nymph
    Nymph


    Dismantle Public Education - Page 2 Empty Re: Dismantle Public Education

    Post  ____ Mon Mar 22, 2010 8:49 pm

    Doesn't really prove anything since you've yet to prove that the average ancient Athenian is more or better educated than the average person of today. And I would wager that they aren't.
    Psalter
    Psalter
    River-God
    River-God


    Dismantle Public Education - Page 2 Empty Re: Dismantle Public Education

    Post  Psalter Mon Mar 22, 2010 8:58 pm

    Bardan wrote:Society as a whole...and you're wrong.
    Deliberately I think.


    I do think the systems I mentioned benefit society more as a whole. Are you saying you don't agree? Why?

    OKies. Hows about a comprehensive (at least as comprehensive as NZ's public school system - ie, literacy, numeracy etc) at least national system present in a society (contemporary or historical) that does not have a standardised, homogenised, (pasteurised?) government controlled schooling system, where all or at least a very great majority of the free peoples receive a minimum of education greater than what we currently do in the public system of New Zealand?

    Ancient Athens.
    What's that prove?

    Nothing, it proves nothing... because you are wrong. The level of education among free people in ancient Athens was nowhere near the same level as is current in Finland and NZ.

    I don't agree because it is not available to greater society. What you advocate ensures that people from lower socio-economic sectors of society are provided with education equal (at best) only to their ability to pay. What this boils down to is social reproduction on the grandest of scales.

    Education, as it exists now, is already a system that contributes to social reproduction. With the introduction of market model education (trialled and failed) you ensure that we stratify future generations according to the wealth of the current. Further, we can argue that the Pedagogue system raised such minds as Gaius Julius Caesar, Plato, Aristotle, Augustus Caesar et al, but to do so would be to ignore the "ignominious" masses who were denied a decent education because they had the poor sense to be born poor.
    Bardan
    Bardan
    Giant
    Giant


    Dismantle Public Education - Page 2 Empty Re: Dismantle Public Education

    Post  Bardan Mon Mar 22, 2010 9:47 pm

    Doesn't really prove anything since you've yet to prove that the average ancient Athenian is more or better educated

    I feel like every time I answer the goal-posts are moved.
    ____
    ____
    Nymph
    Nymph


    Dismantle Public Education - Page 2 Empty Re: Dismantle Public Education

    Post  ____ Mon Mar 22, 2010 9:55 pm

    You can feel like that all you want, but I feel like that doesn't make it true.
    Psalter
    Psalter
    River-God
    River-God


    Dismantle Public Education - Page 2 Empty Re: Dismantle Public Education

    Post  Psalter Mon Mar 22, 2010 9:57 pm

    Bardan wrote:Doesn't really prove anything since you've yet to prove that the average ancient Athenian is more or better educated

    I feel like every time I answer the goal-posts are moved.

    Why?

    The question at hand was society as a whole, not select individuals.
    dabiarch
    dabiarch
    Nymph
    Nymph


    Dismantle Public Education - Page 2 Empty Re: Dismantle Public Education

    Post  dabiarch Mon Mar 22, 2010 10:28 pm

    i prsonally know 2 tutors on that list and they can't teach their way out of a paper bag Laughing
    Bardan
    Bardan
    Giant
    Giant


    Dismantle Public Education - Page 2 Empty Re: Dismantle Public Education

    Post  Bardan Mon Mar 22, 2010 10:30 pm

    I feel like every time I answer the goal-posts are moved.
    Why?
    The question at hand was society as a whole, not select individuals.


    That's my point: was. First I had to find private national superior systems; Did. Next it was a (Pasturised) literacy and neumaracy comparason; Stated. And then I'm supposed to prove things about Athens vs Earth 2010 as if that would put the matter to rest. So if I had to guess I'd say that's where the feeling came from.

    Why don't we stick to your origional challange?

    I don't agree because it is not available to greater society.

    Tutors? Who's stopping "greater society" from hiring tutors?

    What you advocate ensures that people from lower socio-economic sectors of society are provided with education equal (at best) only to their ability to pay.

    Or raise funds as Kiri Te Kanawa's community did, which was hardly unique.

    Yes- ability to pay. Got a problem with that?

    With the introduction of market model education (trialled and failed)

    Failed how? Piano teachers seem to make a decent living not to mention those other 30 examples above.

    you ensure that we stratify future generations according to the wealth of the current.

    Because there was no such thing as upward mobility and nouveau riche before state schools came along? News to me.

    Augustus Caesar et al, but to do so would be to ignore the "ignominious" masses who were denied a decent education because they had the poor sense to be born poor.

    Can you back up your allegations of indecent education? To me that's an unusual claim but maybe you know more history than I do. What is this decent education notion?

    Also, if your ambition is to remove market segmentation from the face of education then (a) why? And, (b) why stop there? Somewhere someone is buying better quality hookers and beer and internet speed and cookware. How is it your business to try to change all that and level every wave in the sea? Let the people decide.
    Psalter
    Psalter
    River-God
    River-God


    Dismantle Public Education - Page 2 Empty Re: Dismantle Public Education

    Post  Psalter Mon Mar 22, 2010 10:35 pm

    That's my point: was. First I had to find private national superior systems; Did.

    When?
    Psalter
    Psalter
    River-God
    River-God


    Dismantle Public Education - Page 2 Empty Re: Dismantle Public Education

    Post  Psalter Mon Mar 22, 2010 10:40 pm

    Yes- ability to pay. Got a problem with that?

    Yes, I do.

    Ability and willingness to pay are the two prime motivators in any market model. Seeing as the parents are the consumers (as in they have the money), who is the advocate for the child?

    It is the child, and the children of the child (ad infinitum) that loses in the end. You advocate a system that puts quality education out of reach of a dis-empowered section of society. Ultimately, this is an issue of creating a class system that would be more entrenched than what is already the status quo.

    It becomes a racial issue too.
    ____
    ____
    Nymph
    Nymph


    Dismantle Public Education - Page 2 Empty Re: Dismantle Public Education

    Post  ____ Mon Mar 22, 2010 10:43 pm

    Nah but Psalter if they want their kids to get a better education they can work harder and pay for it. After all, every single person has the exact same abilities and opportunities. Right?
    Waireka
    Waireka
    River-God
    River-God


    Dismantle Public Education - Page 2 Empty Re: Dismantle Public Education

    Post  Waireka Mon Mar 22, 2010 10:51 pm

    ____ wrote:Nah but Psalter if they want their kids to get a better education they can work harder and pay for it. After all, every single person has the exact same abilities and opportunities. Right?

    ... and every child can decide if they want to be born into a family who considers education a priority and worth paying for.
    Psalter
    Psalter
    River-God
    River-God


    Dismantle Public Education - Page 2 Empty Re: Dismantle Public Education

    Post  Psalter Mon Mar 22, 2010 10:59 pm

    Can you back up your allegations of indecent education? To me that's an unusual claim but maybe you know more history than I do. What is this decent education notion?

    It's free information... look it up.

    Romans and Greeks were educated by family (privately) employed Pedagogues, all other education was trade-based. Because of the lack of opportunity for upward mobility and the relative poverty that the Head Count lived in, they would usually train under their fathers.

    This is education, but in terms of political and mercantile application, it was not "decent".


    Because there was no such thing as upward mobility and nouveau riche before state schools came along? News to me.

    Yes, because that's what I said right?

    No, it wasn't. What I did say is that the restriction of education based on economic prosperity ensures a general stratification of society. Before public education, there was little in the way of class mobility... unless of course you have evidence to the contrary?



    Failed how? Piano teachers seem to make a decent living not to mention those other 30 examples above.

    And here we have the crux of the matter.

    Do a little research and come back to me. Key to this research should be the words "efficiency movement in education" and "market model education".

    Read Adams and Hamer (2006) "Inequality and social stratification in society. (in education and society in Aotearoa NZ)

    Read Carpenter's "Teaching New Zealand's children of the poor" (2008).

    Read Martin Thrupp ... pretty much anything.

    Lee and Lee (G & H) for background on social issues in education... particularly social mobility and education.

    "Bright futures and the knowledge society" by JD Marshall is great for the examination of knowledge as a right treated as a commodity.

    Once you have read those few articles, chapters, and papers you will almost be up to pace on the background of the efficiency movement (known as the market model in the states I'm pretty sure).

    Very few (if any) respected educational theorists support it.
    Bardan
    Bardan
    Giant
    Giant


    Dismantle Public Education - Page 2 Empty Re: Dismantle Public Education

    Post  Bardan Mon Mar 22, 2010 11:12 pm

    That's my point: was. First I had to find private national superior systems; Did.
    When?


    Yon.

    Ability and willingness to pay are the two prime motivators in any market model. Seeing as the parents are the consumers (as in they have the money), who is the advocate for the child?

    Isn't the student the consumer? That's how we do it at my house and I could tell you some stories...

    You advocate a system that puts quality education out of reach of a dis-empowered section of society.

    I guess if you could convince me of that then I would reverse my position. But I don't even know what you mean when you say things like "decent" and "quality" eduation. What do voluntarists miss out on??

    Nah but Psalter if they want their kids to get a better education they can work harder and pay for it. After all, every single person has the exact same abilities and opportunities. Right?

    In this case that's pretty much true, yeah. But if you want a phenomenal education you could appeal to your wider family and community who may recognise your potential and sponsor or patronise you as was done in the past. My cousins in Australia have their tuition paid for by mining companies in exchange for a term of employment upon graduation. There are such things as private student loans. I was speaking to a branch manager for a local bank last month about how he offers amazing overdraft and cash incentives to students if they will become customers in the hopes they will make good clients in later life.

    Note that such institutions exist now, even when the state is taxing and regulating and running eduation. We can only suppose that such initiatives would thrive if the State were not supplanting the free market.
    Waireka
    Waireka
    River-God
    River-God


    Dismantle Public Education - Page 2 Empty Re: Dismantle Public Education

    Post  Waireka Mon Mar 22, 2010 11:30 pm

    Bardan wrote:Ability and willingness to pay are the two prime motivators in any market model. Seeing as the parents are the consumers (as in they have the money), who is the advocate for the child?

    Isn't the student the consumer? That's how we do it at my house and I could tell you some stories...

    A 5 year old student with no income or finances cannot be the consumer. There's a clear line between Child and Adult, money gives the power of independence and creates the consumer.

    Like I've already said, this is why it's consider okay for Uni students etc... to take advantage of a free market. Their life, their money, their choice, it's all in their hands.
    Bardan
    Bardan
    Giant
    Giant


    Dismantle Public Education - Page 2 Empty Re: Dismantle Public Education

    Post  Bardan Mon Mar 22, 2010 11:32 pm

    Can you back up your allegations of indecent education?
    ...is education, but in terms of political and mercantile application, it was not "decent".


    So I guess what you meant to argue from the start is that the vaue of education is that it makes one politically and entreprenerially efficacious? If so, let's agree to that standard and let it test our beliefs.

    Because there was no such thing as upward mobility and nouveau riche before state schools came along? News to me.
    Before public education, there was little in the way of class mobility... unless of course you have evidence to the contrary?


    I feel like I'm missunderstanding you here. But if we establish that people were able to raise above their station previous to 1876 will that refute your point?

    With the introduction of market model education (trialled and failed)
    Failed how?[/b]
    [b]Do a little research and come back to me.


    One side of this debate has my hands full right now. But if you're short-handed maybe you can hire one of those tutors?

    Once you have read those few articles, chapters, and papers you will almost be up to pace

    I appreciate you want to level the playing field so you don't thwump me with superior specialist knowledge. But hit me with your best shot. If you blow my mind with the force of your well-researched arguments I promose I wont cry.

    Very few (if any) respected educational theorists support it.

    Respected? By who? And what does the truth owe to the number of its adherents anyway?
    Psalter
    Psalter
    River-God
    River-God


    Dismantle Public Education - Page 2 Empty Re: Dismantle Public Education

    Post  Psalter Mon Mar 22, 2010 11:41 pm

    So I guess what you meant to argue from the start is that the vaue of education is that it makes one politically and entreprenerially efficacious? If so, let's agree to that standard and let it test our beliefs.

    You deliberately misunderstand me. I speak in terms of upward mobility. Upward mobility in Roman and Greek times was dependant on entrepreneurial and/or political success. Education in these fields was limited to those that had money in the first place. Ergo, social reproduction.



    I feel like I'm missunderstanding you here. But if we establish that people were able to raise above their station previous to 1876 will that refute your point?

    Not at all... because I said "little" not "no". Not that hard to understand.



    I appreciate you want to level the playing field so you don't thwump me with superior specialist knowledge. But hit me with your best shot. If you blow my mind with the force of your well-researched arguments I promose I wont cry.

    I have an essay on almost exactly the topic, if it's on this computer still, I will post it tomorrow.



    Respected? By who? And what does the truth owe to the number of its adherents anyway?

    Peers in the field. Not much, but when it is backed by research (read evidence)... it means a lot. Heard of the peer review process?

    Sponsored content


    Dismantle Public Education - Page 2 Empty Re: Dismantle Public Education

    Post  Sponsored content


      Current date/time is Thu May 02, 2024 12:28 pm