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Diaz
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Waireka
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    Post  Waireka Tue Nov 24, 2009 12:19 pm

    Damn you SC ban.

    Okay, so this was a big suprise for me, I never thought it would get officially approved, given that it represents Maori sovereignty, something the government refuses to accept.

    I disagree with it being flown officially whilst the government continues this stance.

    As for it representing protest etc... it is often flown as a reminder of broken agreements of which these grievances have occured.

    I don't think it should be flown, I don't see what's wrong with our current flag either. I'm happy to have the Union Jack, we are part of the Commonwealth (not that the UJ is necessary) and the southern cross is ours. If we were to change it, I would want something like a silver fern on black, something generically NZ and already recognized internationally.
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    Post  master5o1 Tue Nov 24, 2009 12:38 pm

    fyi silver fern is a messy flag and a piece of shit.
    i'd just want a black flag with white southern cross on it...



    But there is NO REASON to change the flag...srsly.
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    Post  canterella Tue Nov 24, 2009 1:22 pm

    Considering that I'm an immigrant to this country and reasonably ignorant about NZ's historical issues, I absolutely love the TR flag, I think its design and colours are simple and perfect when you compare it with the official NZ flag, old, unoriginal, boring, outdated. But I suppose that it might be accepted in maybe 200 years time when I hope we as a country will be over the controversies of it. Very Happy
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    Post  relict Tue Nov 24, 2009 4:01 pm

    I agree with canterella that the design is nicer. It's a shame that we haven't sorted issues by now so we could use it and mean it.

    For some strange reason when I try to imagine a black flag with the southern cross, I think of pirates. Sad
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    Post  Tikva Tue Nov 24, 2009 8:51 pm

    To be completely honest, I think it is an ugly flag. Not the design, but the colours.

    I am with Waireka on this issue though. This particular flag is connected to Maori Sovereignty, and it seems rather hypocritical for our government to fly it. I would much rather see a new flag designed to represent the indigenous people of our Country, and would have no problem with such a flag flying alongside the Union Jack.
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    Post  Diaz Tue Nov 24, 2009 10:39 pm

    Blank


    Last edited by Diaz on Tue Mar 30, 2010 10:01 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    Post  Tikva Wed Nov 25, 2009 10:55 am

    Actually, that's a good point, Diaz. Maybe by flying the flag officially, it will become more accepted as a 'Maori' flag, rather than a Maori Sovereignty flag.
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    Post  Waireka Wed Nov 25, 2009 11:43 am

    Tikva wrote:Actually, that's a good point, Diaz. Maybe by flying the flag officially, it will become more accepted as a 'Maori' flag, rather than a Maori Sovereignty flag.

    but it is the Maori Sovereignty flag, it'd be an insult to try and change the meaning as it represents a very important issue.
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    Post  master5o1 Wed Nov 25, 2009 11:46 am

    Tikva wrote:Actually, that's a good point, Diaz. Maybe by flying the flag officially, it will become more accepted as a 'Maori' flag, rather than a Maori Sovereignty flag.


    You mean that they want the flag to lose all its meaning. Sounds to me like it's the perfect plan for when the next Maori activist comes along flying this flag, and everyone is like 'Meh, it's just a Maori flag.' instead of 'Oh...He wants Maori Sovereignty."
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    Post  Waireka Wed Nov 25, 2009 11:50 am

    master5o1 wrote:
    Tikva wrote:Actually, that's a good point, Diaz. Maybe by flying the flag officially, it will become more accepted as a 'Maori' flag, rather than a Maori Sovereignty flag.


    You mean that they want the flag to lose all its meaning. Sounds to me like it's the perfect plan for when the next Maori activist comes along flying this flag, and everyone is like 'Meh, it's just a Maori flag.' instead of 'Oh...He wants Maori Sovereignty."

    Smile Zactly!
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    Post  Tikva Wed Nov 25, 2009 11:54 am

    I believe that you will find that the original Designer of the flag did NOT create it as a Maori Sovereignty flag.
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    Post  master5o1 Wed Nov 25, 2009 11:57 am

    Tikva wrote:I believe that you will find that the original Designer of the flag did NOT create it as a Maori Sovereignty flag.


    This is irrelevant. The flag has come to mean Maori sovereignty. Flying it as simply a Maori flag will be ignoring the history of the flag, and a lot of Maori history.
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    Post  Tikva Wed Nov 25, 2009 12:01 pm

    In 1989 a competition was run by a group named Te Kawariki to design a national Māori flag. Most of the entries however, were considered inappropriate because they were designed around a bi-racial rather than a specific Māori theme.

    The only flag that met the criteria of recognising Māori history, expressing a Māori purpose and using a Māori design, was one designed by - Hiraina Marsden, Jan Dobson and Linda Munn. Another member of Te Kawariki, Walter Erstich, gave the explanation to the design.

    After some revision by other members of Te Kawariki, the final version was eventually approved as the winner of the competition and unveiled as the national Māori flag, at Waitangi, on Waitangi Day 1990. It has since become known as the ‘Tino Rangatiratanga’ flag.

    Explanation of design:

    Black represents Te Korekore, the realm of potential, the heavens, the long darkness from which the world emerged. Black also represents the male element - formless, floating and passive.

    White represents Te Ao Mārama the realm of being, the world of light, the physical world. White also symbolises purity, harmony enlightenment, and balance.

    Red represents Te Whei Ao, the realm of coming into being. Red also represents active, lashing, southern, falling, emergence, forest, land, and gestation. Red is the female element, Papatuanuku, the earth mother, the sustainer of all living things. Red is also the colour of earth from which the first human was made.

    The Koru (the curling frond shape) represents the unfolding of new life, rebirth, continuity, renewal and hope for the future.

    Source
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    Post  Waireka Wed Nov 25, 2009 12:05 pm

    It was created for tino rangatiratanga

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10611493

    The definition of which is blurred in the article I will admit.
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    Post  Tikva Wed Nov 25, 2009 12:06 pm

    I do not believe it is irrelevant. A group of people used the flag as a symbol of Maori Sovereignty, even though it was never designed to be so. The original meaning of this flag has been bastardised, IMHO, detracting the beauty of the symbolism from it in the process.
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    Post  Waireka Wed Nov 25, 2009 12:07 pm

    Te Kawariki is a passive protest group
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    Post  Tikva Wed Nov 25, 2009 12:11 pm

    I understand that, Waireka, but any flag is about symbolism, and the original symbolism intended for this flag by its Designers has been skewed.

    BTW, I think it sucks big time that you've been banned!!!!
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    Post  Waireka Wed Nov 25, 2009 12:14 pm

    So do I, but it's the end of a sad period of my life in some ways, haha.

    The purpose of the flag was for protest representation from the design, the symbolism just fits in with their cause.
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    Post  master5o1 Wed Nov 25, 2009 12:16 pm

    Nothing was skewed, and if it was, not by much.
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    Post  Tikva Wed Nov 25, 2009 12:23 pm

    Waireka wrote:
    The purpose of the flag was for protest representation from the design, the symbolism just fits in with their cause.

    Okay, I accept that. But how did the Maori Sovereignty association come into it? Is Te Kawariki a group that fights for sovereignty?
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    Post  Waireka Wed Nov 25, 2009 12:36 pm

    Only thing I can find is http://collections.tepapa.govt.nz/Party.aspx?irn=11322 their stuff for sale at Te Papa, which definitely suggests tino rangatiratanga is it.
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    Post  Lynz Wed Nov 25, 2009 12:38 pm

    Regardless of how this flag became associated with Maori Sovereignty, the one thing they indisputably did give up, I am opposed to any flag, not that of a Sovereign Nation, flying alongside the New Zealand Ensign. It is a breach of flag etiquette. They could of course fly it under the Ensign.

    I see nothing wrong with the current design of our National Ensign. It was good enough for my Father to serve under in the Pacific during World War Two. Good enough for his Father to go ashore under at Gallipoli. Good enough for thousands of New Zealanders, of all creeds and colours, to die under. A Nations Flag is not a pair of undies to be changed at the whim of the chattering classes.
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    Post  Waireka Wed Nov 25, 2009 12:43 pm

    Lynz wrote:

    I see nothing wrong with the current design of our National Ensign. It was good enough for my Father to serve under in the Pacific during World War Two. Good enough for his Father to go ashore under at Gallipoli. Good enough for thousands of New Zealanders, of all creeds and colours, to die under. A Nations Flag is not a pair of undies to be changed at the whim of the chattering classes.

    Well said.
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    Post  master5o1 Wed Nov 25, 2009 12:54 pm

    I agree with Lynz. Changing the flag is like changing our identity and erasing our history.
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    Post  canterella Wed Nov 25, 2009 1:43 pm

    Bullshit. The world is progressing and changing. You are giving too much significance to something that is just a colourful piece of cloth to be flown at ceremonies.

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