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    Stabbing, beating, raping, and murdering other inmates.

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    Psalter
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    Stabbing, beating, raping, and murdering other inmates.

    Post  Psalter on Fri Jun 11, 2010 4:49 pm

    This little battle going on between Tikva, SSB, and BB is a very interesting one.

    I love Tikva's points about the dual standards that the twosome are supporting, but I support them to a degree somewhat myself.

    I kind of believe in outlaw status... we have an obligation as society to live within laws, it is a social contract that we have no choice over whether we are a part of it or not, it just is. Now, if we break this contract in such a way that deprives someone of their freedoms or their biological rights, why should the contract still apply to us?

    We have shown our disregard for the social contract, we have shown our disregard for society.

    Discuss.
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    ChelseaT
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    Post  ChelseaT on Fri Jun 11, 2010 4:54 pm

    Considering New Zealand doesn't really have a 'life sentence', then no. These criminals will one day be loose among society and in our duty to protect the innocent we must reform the abusers.
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    83T'na
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    Post  83T'na on Fri Jun 11, 2010 4:55 pm

    ChelseaT wrote:Considering New Zealand doesn't really have a 'life sentence', then no. These criminals will one day be loose among society and in our duty to protect the innocent we must reform the abusers.

    Agreed.
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    Anjewel
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    Post  Anjewel on Fri Jun 11, 2010 4:55 pm

    I get where Tikva is coming from. Having her son in prison, and the fear that anything could go wrong in there for him, would be hard to bear for her. BB always has a tongue in cheek approach to stuff and SSB never knows which way to go after a few posts get to him.
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    Tikva
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    Post  Tikva on Fri Jun 11, 2010 4:56 pm

    Could you please dumbdown your questions for me? I don't quite understand what you mean by:

    I kind of believe in outlaw status... we have an obligation as society to live within laws, it is a social contract that we have no choice over whether we are a part of it or not, it just is. Now, if we break this contract in such a way that deprives someone of their freedoms or their biological rights, why should the contract still apply to us?

    We have shown our disregard for the social contract, we have shown our disregard for society.
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    Psalter
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    Post  Psalter on Fri Jun 11, 2010 4:56 pm

    Also, I would like to add that Tikva has fucken owned them all over the show once again.

    Perhaps someone could link them to the following thread? I think it suits the argument well.



    http://smilecity.co.nz/Community/ForumPost.aspx?topicid=188220

    Further, I would like to say that I truthfully don't wish to see these people harmed, but "the social contract" perhaps shouldn't apply to them.

    ydekm
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    Post  ydekm on Fri Jun 11, 2010 4:58 pm

    Yeah it's interesting stuff.

    I've seen too many kids be let down firstly by their families, then by non-government and government agencies go onto commit violent crime and end up in jail becoming better, hardened, gang-affiliated criminals so my view is biased.
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    Psalter
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    Post  Psalter on Fri Jun 11, 2010 5:01 pm

    Tikva wrote:Could you please dumbdown your questions for me? I don't quite understand what you mean by:

    I kind of believe in outlaw status... we have an obligation as society to live within laws, it is a social contract that we have no choice over whether we are a part of it or not, it just is. Now, if we break this contract in such a way that deprives someone of their freedoms or their biological rights, why should the contract still apply to us?

    We have shown our disregard for the social contract, we have shown our disregard for society.

    We are born into civilization without our consent, and within this civilization we are granted certain rights and privileges. Our rights and privileges are granted to us by law and are only held in place by a common adherence to the law. In bygone days, if you broke the law you were made "outlaw" which literally meant that you were not granted the rights and privileges available to all others under the social contract.

    We still have this to a degree, but I don't know if I agree that it goes far enough anymore.
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    Tikva
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    Post  Tikva on Fri Jun 11, 2010 5:10 pm

    Thank you Psalter - that makes more sense to me now.

    Can you be more specific about in what degrees you don't think this goes far enough anymore?
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    Psalter
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    Post  Psalter on Fri Jun 11, 2010 5:19 pm

    Tikva wrote:Thank you Psalter - that makes more sense to me now.

    Can you be more specific about in what degrees you don't think this goes far enough anymore?

    No actually, I can't really.

    When I say "I kinda believe in outlaw status" I really mean "this is my gut reaction, it is emotion based and I haven't really thought it out."

    Maybe I mean that they (criminals) have too many rights available to them. Particularly with murderers... we only own one thing... our own life. These people have stolen all rights from their victims, even the right to feel pain and loss. They have stolen everything that person could have ever been or done. Why should they even be granted a right to appeal their prison term?

    Anyway, I had a thought just before... it's not complete, but I am about to get drunk so it likely never will be.

    Perhaps, when a person asserts their will over another and subverts their victim's rights based solely on their own willingness and ability to do so, they have forfeited the lawful social contract and entered into another where this is the norm. Namely, a criminal social contract where all that is required is ability and a willingness to do anything.
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    Tikva
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    Post  Tikva on Fri Jun 11, 2010 6:09 pm

    Damn ~ can't you hold off the drinking of the alcohol for now, so you can complete that thought? Very Happy

    In all honesty, I have to confess that before my son committed the crimes he did, my responses would have no doubt been similar to those of SSB and BB. In the case of one of the acts of crime he committed, I actually expressed my disgust in whoever did it, before I knew it was my own son.

    Since that time, however, experience with the Police, the Courts, and Corrections, I have learned a lot, and most of it has been negative. This ranges from Police Officers who break the law themselves through bullying and physical violence, Prisons not providing adequate Medical Treatment resulting in a permanent injury (will deal with that one when my Son is released), to Prisons/Corrections not doing what they 'tell society' they are doing in terms of Rehabilitation. Because of the latter, many people are given false ideas, and from that, make incorrect assumptions.

    The one thing that I honestly do not understand is the fact that there is no Mental Health Support within the Prison System. When some people commit crimes, they are doing so from what I would consider an 'unhealthy' state of mind, and I foolishly assumed that such support would be available in our Prison Systems, to the extent that I didn't even believe my Son's Lawyer when he laughed at the absurdity of my belief. Now, I know that he was right, and I just cannot understand why something that (to me) seems basic to rehabilitation is extremely difficult to access.

    There is much more I could say, but will leave it at that for now.
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    frup
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    Post  frup on Fri Jun 11, 2010 6:11 pm

    New Zealand has one of the lowest overall tax rates in the OECD.

    I think too many aspects of our society are underfunded and as a result the departments concerned don't do as good a job as they could. I think mental health, corrections (rehabilitation) and education are three areas where a lot more money would go a long way.

    I see money in these three areas as investments not burdens. It is no secret that those better educated commit less crime (therefore reducing the costs on the Courts, Police and Corrections). Better Educated people would likely make more money for the country long term too.

    The only problem is that MP's whose portfolios are given more money tend to spend the money very badly with crazy ineffective schemes and trips all over the world. It's sad that those in these positions aren't more pragmatic.

    As a question about rehabilitation, because from what I can see, many of the schemes already in place aren't that effective, are there any countries that have excellent systems? I remember watching a documentary possibly about a Swedish prison a very long time ago that had some interesting results. It's kind of funny how a lot of the time New Zealand is compared to Sweden actually. That country must have lots going for it, beautiful girls, pirates, awesome metal and a role model for many politicians Razz
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    Tikva
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    Post  Tikva on Fri Jun 11, 2010 6:24 pm

    frup wrote:New Zealand has one of the lowest overall tax rates in the OECD.

    I think too many aspects of our society are underfunded and as a result the departments concerned don't do as good a job as they could. I think mental health, corrections (rehabilitation) and education are three areas where a lot more money would go a long way.

    I see money in these three areas as investments not burdens. It is no secret that those better educated commit less crime (therefore reducing the costs on the Courts, Police and Corrections). Better Educated people would likely make more money for the country long term too.

    The only problem is that MP's whose portfolios are given more money tend to spend the money very badly with crazy ineffective schemes and trips all over the world. It's sad that those in these positions aren't more pragmatic.

    As a question about rehabilitation, because from what I can see, many of the schemes already in place aren't that effective, are there any countries that have excellent systems? I remember watching a documentary possibly about a Swedish prison a very long time ago that had some interesting results. It's kind of funny how a lot of the time New Zealand is compared to Sweden actually. That country must have lots going for it, beautiful girls, pirates, awesome metal and a role model for many politicians Razz

    Agreed. Money spent in those areas would be investments, and not burdens. From what I have observed, the majority of the Rehabilitation Schemes within Prisons focus on Education and Employment, but they are very limited in what is actually offered. My son (believe it or not) is actually very intelligent, and during the time he has been incarcerated, has done every course that is available to him, and at different prisons. Very early on he decided that this was not enough for him, and he enrolled himself in the Correspondence School, from which he has gained not only his NCEA Level 1, but also 2 and 3. He has now enrolled himself in the Open Polytechnic, studying Horticulture and Agriculture, but as the Prison only has a 'general' reading Library, and (contrary to popular belief) there is no access to the Internet. As a result, he cannot access the 'recommended reading' books he needs to complete his studies unless someone on the 'outside' does it for him.

    And that is only one of the difficulties he has which requires persistence and action from those on the 'outside'.
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    83T'na
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    Post  83T'na on Fri Jun 11, 2010 6:38 pm

    [quote="Tikva"]
    frup wrote:
    Agreed. Money spent in those areas would be investments, and not burdens. From what I have observed, the majority of the Rehabilitation Schemes within Prisons focus on Education and Employment, but they are very limited in what is actually offered. My son (believe it or not) is actually very intelligent, and during the time he has been incarcerated, has done every course that is available to him, and at different prisons. Very early on he decided that this was not enough for him, and he enrolled himself in the Correspondence School, from which he has gained not only his NCEA Level 1, but also 2 and 3. He has now enrolled himself in the Open Polytechnic, studying Horticulture and Agriculture, but as the Prison only has a 'general' reading Library, and (contrary to popular belief) there is no access to the Internet. As a result, he cannot access the 'recommended reading' books he needs to complete his studies unless someone on the 'outside' does it for him.

    And that is only one of the difficulties he has which requires persistence and action from those on the 'outside'.

    Don't get me wrong, good for him and I wish him the best of luck, but I would have to pay for those courses.
    Forgive me for feeling slightly resentful.
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    frup
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    Post  frup on Fri Jun 11, 2010 6:42 pm

    He probably still needed to get a student loan for this.
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    Psalter
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    Re: Stabbing, beating, raping, and murdering other inmates.

    Post  Psalter on Fri Jun 11, 2010 6:44 pm

    [quote="83T'na"]
    Tikva wrote:
    frup wrote:
    Agreed. Money spent in those areas would be investments, and not burdens. From what I have observed, the majority of the Rehabilitation Schemes within Prisons focus on Education and Employment, but they are very limited in what is actually offered. My son (believe it or not) is actually very intelligent, and during the time he has been incarcerated, has done every course that is available to him, and at different prisons. Very early on he decided that this was not enough for him, and he enrolled himself in the Correspondence School, from which he has gained not only his NCEA Level 1, but also 2 and 3. He has now enrolled himself in the Open Polytechnic, studying Horticulture and Agriculture, but as the Prison only has a 'general' reading Library, and (contrary to popular belief) there is no access to the Internet. As a result, he cannot access the 'recommended reading' books he needs to complete his studies unless someone on the 'outside' does it for him.

    And that is only one of the difficulties he has which requires persistence and action from those on the 'outside'.

    Don't get me wrong, good for him and I wish him the best of luck, but I would have to pay for those courses.
    Forgive me for feeling slightly resentful.

    Yeah? Bugger all though, and better that than create a permanent criminal.
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    83T'na
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    Post  83T'na on Fri Jun 11, 2010 6:49 pm

    [quote="Psalter"][quote="83T'na"][quote="Tikva"]
    frup wrote:

    Yeah? Bugger all though, and better that than create a permanent criminal.

    True. Although, Open Poly fees are just like any other course. Not cheap. Depending on what you want to do though.
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    Tikva
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    Post  Tikva on Fri Jun 11, 2010 6:52 pm

    frup wrote:He probably still needed to get a student loan for this.

    Correct - he did.
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    Waireka
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    Post  Waireka on Fri Jun 11, 2010 7:27 pm

    I know a young boy who was shuffled around the foster system so badly, that when his caseworker showed up at school and told him his things were in the car and he was being moved to a group home, he punched the caseworker and ended up in Juvie.

    Juvie did nothing for him, but once he was out he was put into a farming & agriculture rehab program where he was employed as a farm hand.

    He is now a productive, contributing, law abiding member of society at 20 years old.

    Rehabilitation can work, but it needs more $'s spent in the right places.

    Considering most criminals start their life of crime before 20, targeting youth needs to be done more effectively. A lot of these kids end up in 'courses' <--- most of which are generally a bit of a joke.



    As for the OP. Humans are human, whether they behave humanely or not. If we turn a blind eye to such treatment, then we are no better than those locked up.

    Also keep in mind, people imprisoned are not always guilty.
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    frup
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    Post  frup on Fri Jun 11, 2010 7:34 pm

    Waireka wrote:
    Considering most criminals start their life of crime before 20, targeting youth needs to be done more effectively. A lot of these kids end up in 'courses' <--- most of which are generally a bit of a joke.

    Schools of crime.

    Criminals should not associate. Schemes like PD, Courses, even cells provide a way for them to meet each other and swap ideas and just generally be a bad influence on each other.

    Then you have the complete and utter sham that drug rehab is (again largely due to it's poor funding as well of the lack of true desire by the participants)
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    Tikva
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    Post  Tikva on Sat Jun 12, 2010 12:20 am

    Prisons themselves need to be added to that list, frup, not just cells. My son has only shared a little of the 'education' he has received from others prisoners with me ~ I shudder to think what else he has learned.

    I also agree when it comes to those Courses, which are usually just a dropping ground for kids who have been kicked out of school, often due to bad behaviour. Makes Unemployment statistics look better too.
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    frup
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    Post  frup on Sat Jun 12, 2010 2:52 am

    Tikva wrote:Prisons themselves need to be added to that list, frup, not just cells. My son has only shared a little of the 'education' he has received from others prisoners with me ~ I shudder to think what else he has learned.

    I also agree when it comes to those Courses, which are usually just a dropping ground for kids who have been kicked out of school, often due to bad behaviour. Makes Unemployment statistics look better too.

    When I referred to cells I meant prison as well as pre-conviction cells.
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    83T'na
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    Post  83T'na on Sat Jun 12, 2010 10:30 am

    Waireka wrote:
    He is now a productive, contributing, law abiding member of society at 20 years old.

    Rehabilitation can work, but it needs more $'s spent in the right places.

    Considering most criminals start their life of crime before 20, targeting youth needs to be done more effectively. A lot of these kids end up in 'courses' <--- most of which are generally a bit of a joke.


    The problem with a lot of the 'courses' and attempts at rahab is that's too 'hit and miss'. It will work well for some, but not others. Each case worker will have heaps of resources, but they'll use them for the wrong kids. Instead of asking those kids what they like best and want to be doing, they shuffle the kids between courses (akin to foster homes) and after a year or so give up.

    Find out what they are good at and they will be far more successful at rehabilitating themselves.

    Another problem with 'courses', is that they are not checked out or monitored properly. They'll put on a good show so they get the contract, but then fail the students in the end.

    My son (unemployed, doing what WINZ tells him) just finished a course in hospitality and he was so unhappy with the way it was run. It took everything I had to convince him that completing it anyway looks way better to a future employer than not. The Ministry of Social Development got told actual lies about what kind of equipment there would be and how many staff were working there.

    ydekm
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    Post  ydekm on Sat Jun 12, 2010 10:50 am

    83T'na wrote:
    Waireka wrote:
    He is now a productive, contributing, law abiding member of society at 20 years old.

    Rehabilitation can work, but it needs more $'s spent in the right places.

    Considering most criminals start their life of crime before 20, targeting youth needs to be done more effectively. A lot of these kids end up in 'courses' <--- most of which are generally a bit of a joke.


    The problem with a lot of the 'courses' and attempts at rahab is that's too 'hit and miss'. It will work well for some, but not others. Each case worker will have heaps of resources, but they'll use them for the wrong kids. Instead of asking those kids what they like best and want to be doing, they shuffle the kids between courses (akin to foster homes) and after a year or so give up.

    Find out what they are good at and they will be far more successful at rehabilitating themselves.

    Another problem with 'courses', is that they are not checked out or monitored properly. They'll put on a good show so they get the contract, but then fail the students in the end.

    My son (unemployed, doing what WINZ tells him) just finished a course in hospitality and he was so unhappy with the way it was run. It took everything I had to convince him that completing it anyway looks way better to a future employer than not. The Ministry of Social Development got told actual lies about what kind of equipment there would be and how many staff were working there.

    Case workers dont have that many resources...not sure why you think they do? TDO knows alot more about this subject than I do, he used to recruit kids from Child Youth and Family/Work and Income for training in South Auckland. Where as I worked with a lot of non-government organisations (like the one he worked for) raising their profile for social workers and encouraging colocation, collaboration etc.

    I think you're being unrealistic - there is only so much funding avaliable, case workers, social workers and training centres dont have the money (or time, same thing) to spend holding hands with a teenager to find out what he wants to do with his life. And a one-size fits all/most is the most economic way to get things done (like Frup mentioned, many areas need a cash injection).

    Often with the high-risk kids TDO and I have worked with, if you DO find out what a kid wants to do with his life, and you encourage him down that path, but every night he goes home and gets beaten by his drunk Dad with a beer bottle...chances are he isn't going to succeed. That doesn't mean those agencies/course providers haven't tried their best. It's pretty heart-breaking work at times.


    No matter WHAT model is applied there are just too many risk factors at-risk youth face to help everyone. I doubt your son is considered high risk. And he isn't going to like how lots of things are run... doesn't mean the course didn't help someone else.

    Also most training facilities don't get funding unless their students pass.... so they do care from a financial perspective. Students usually have to get successful employment after they pass - or go onto further studies aswell as pass an initial Work and Income-esque course.

    It pays to remember ALL of these Work and Income courses are low-level (NCEA 1 or 2) and are aimed to get the participants into further education.


    Also Tikva, really good to hear about your son and in terms of getting him his course materials: your son should be able to give you permission to access his studylink account (ie he needs to call Studylink and get you setup on his account) so you could buy his course materials on his behalf using his course related costs portion of his loan.

    ydekm
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    Re: Stabbing, beating, raping, and murdering other inmates.

    Post  ydekm on Sat Jun 12, 2010 12:00 pm

    My son (unemployed, doing what WINZ tells him) just finished a course in hospitality and he was so unhappy with the way it was run. It took everything I had to convince him that completing it anyway looks way better to a future employer than not. The Ministry of Social Development got told actual lies about what kind of equipment there would be and how many staff were working there.


    FROM TDO:


    dont get me wrong there are osme fuckers of training providers out there ut you have to understand they are subjected to 30 kids in a class. They usually only get rosurced for 18 and trust me their entire funding is performance based. so we would do eveyrhting to get them to pass. I use to do free tutoring for the kids that really were comitted.


    Now not to generalise your son but most of these kids come with HUGE chips on their shoulders and get them with like minded individuals and the pack mentality prevails, I was assaulted, spat at and had my family threatened jsut cause these kids were trying to out do each other.

    As above these courses are usually only level one courses, so they are more usually the fundamental skills ie maths english life skills etc so that the student can cope with higher level education. They really arent designed to get you into a job but to get you the minnimum qaulifications into higher teritary education. If your son enjoyed his hosps course tell him to go to the national bar training school they usually takes TOP's guys to level 3 I believe.

    In regards to case managers they are subjected to some awful shit, and when you have a national government in power every social service gets a cut and usually they are figihting to keep their jobs.

    In regards to the whole prison system I dont think there is a perfect way, and its really the ambulance at the bottom of the hill, once someone gets there its a hard road to get back out (and congrats tivika on your son taking the first steps.). We need to focus on the inital family unit, I dont wana sound like bob mccockskey but really when a family is behind you kids can acheive anything and most of these kids never have that.

    so or the ramble but this would be one of my most passionate topics.

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