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    Yochana's (Tikva's) feminism thread "liberated" from SC.

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    Re: Yochana's (Tikva's) feminism thread "liberated" from SC.

    Post  relict on Tue Sep 22, 2009 11:16 pm

    Jesus Christ wrote:I don't know if we want to get into measuring output of workers and then paying them according to what we perceive their usefulness to be, something which could be blindly influenced by gender. I think a better route to take is simply to allow the turning down of women for jobs on the basis that physical activity is involved, and they do not have the strength, and then a female gets the job by virtue of being strong enough, then pay her equally.

    Regarding the general point concerning Feminism, I think it would be good to establish exactly what we mean by the term. Many people take Feminism to be merely an advocation of women's rights, but in academic literature Feminism is often regarded, even by Feminists themselves, as a grand theory akin to Marxism, which sees the entire world through a single social lens: gender.

    I'm sure our understanding of Feminism in this thread is roughly somewhere between those two extremes, but I honestly consider anything above the former extreme to be somewhat dangerous; meddling in inequality for the sake of equality.

    I agree, and I didn't really mean to turn the conversation to a discussion of the relative strength of the sexes. That was just a random example, to show that it's problematic to just talk about feminism in general:

    relict wrote:I think it is too simplistic to say that feminism has gone too far or not far enough. It is more useful to break things down into more specific situations and look at the underlying principles, and ask if the values we believe in are portrayed in those situations.

    But even then stuff isn't simple. For example, I think the majority of NZers under 50 years old would agree that women and men doing exactly the same job equally well should be paid the same. But it is rarely possible to prove that a man and a woman are performing identically in their jobs, even if they have the same job description. So it comes down to the personal values and integrity of the people in power.

    Since laws often have loopholes, I think the best way for change is in teaching children to think critically, rather than relying on legislation to make things fair.
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    Re: Yochana's (Tikva's) feminism thread "liberated" from SC.

    Post  Waireka on Tue Sep 22, 2009 11:28 pm

    I believe in traditional roles generally, I know not everyone fits them.

    We're created different (physically), you wont catch me with a lawn mower if there's a male in sight to do it for me.

    I'm living the traditional roles now, hubby works, I'm the home maker (less the kids for a few more months), he enjoys being the money maker and has admitted he didn't enjoy me making more than him as it cut down his role as my provider.
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    Re: Yochana's (Tikva's) feminism thread "liberated" from SC.

    Post  relict on Tue Sep 22, 2009 11:51 pm

    Waireka wrote:I believe in traditional roles generally, I know not everyone fits them.

    We're created different (physically), you wont catch me with a lawn mower if there's a male in sight to do it for me.

    I'm living the traditional roles now, hubby works, I'm the home maker (less the kids for a few more months), he enjoys being the money maker and has admitted he didn't enjoy me making more than him as it cut down his role as my provider.

    The differences between the sexes are more than just physical. For example, I'd go so far as saying that on average, mothers have better dispositions for being the primary caregiver of a new baby. That doesn't mean that fathers (or other people) can't do an absolutely splendid job if the need arises, or that they can't share almost equally in the bonding. In some cases men are better. And it is probably always constructive to support whatever each family decides is best for them.


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    Re: Yochana's (Tikva's) feminism thread "liberated" from SC.

    Post  Waireka on Tue Sep 22, 2009 11:58 pm

    but I'm quite happy for a male to get up on the roof and clean the spouting for me


    My 80 year old grandmother still does her own.

    I really hate that she does. Unfortunately she lives 6 hours from all family members.

    We're working on moving her to Welly so my brothers can be her new about the house slaves (my Mum owns a landscaping company, so could just add her into the job sheets no effort).

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    Re: Yochana's (Tikva's) feminism thread "liberated" from SC.

    Post  Diaz on Wed Sep 23, 2009 12:55 am

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    Re: Yochana's (Tikva's) feminism thread "liberated" from SC.

    Post  Tikva on Wed Sep 23, 2009 8:54 am

    Waireka wrote:I believe in traditional roles generally, I know not everyone fits them.

    We're created different (physically), you wont catch me with a lawn mower if there's a male in sight to do it for me.

    I'm living the traditional roles now, hubby works, I'm the home maker (less the kids for a few more months), he enjoys being the money maker and has admitted he didn't enjoy me making more than him as it cut down his role as my provider.

    That is very similar to what I believe too, Waireka. I think there is something inherent in (most) men that needs to be the provider for his family, and when in the position of not being able to, it can have an negative impact.
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    Re: Yochana's (Tikva's) feminism thread "liberated" from SC.

    Post  Tikva on Wed Sep 23, 2009 9:38 am

    Diaz wrote:Feminism is about equality, not about diminishing the rights of others. IMO men have not lost out in many ways because the pre-existing rights they had stayed the same after feminism became an issue, and in many ways society in general has lost sight of why women fought in the first place. It's not about who does the dishes. This is more about social attitudes, many of which die hard. Those gender stereotyping ads being just an example, I could complain about the number of times sex is used to sell and that it disproportionately shows women in sexual poses, often in inappropriate settings.

    More to the point, are men told they can't do something simply because of their gender? Do they get disbarred from setting up support services for men who are victims of domestic violence, or are they barred from lobbying their MP for a law change to the crimes act regarding assaults, or even stopped in suing to be a custodial parent? It's having that right that's important even if it's not taken up. That the police are unhelpful sometimes is not unique to gender, you could say that about their disinterest in following up burglaries. Seems to me that a lot of this stuff could be solved by men themselves if it truly is an issue, it doesn't help very much to complain about perceived injustices when action could be taken to solve the problem instead.

    I wouldn't use cancer as an example, each cancer is different. Some affect both men and women, others are gender specific but each has their own challenges of diagnosis and treatment. I'd love if society changed some attitudes, women as a whole accept cervical screening which is a tad invasive and involves having a speculum inserted into the vagina....but try a rectal digital check on males and most won't let you near them within a million miles. Problem is, that test could improve detection and even save a life even if it is unpleasant.

    I would certainly agree that society has lost sight of why women fought in the first place, but would also add that I believe modern feminism has done the same. I think that many forget that women truly suffered in their fight for equality, in that they were imprisoned, and treated like outcasts.

    When speaking of social attitudes towards women, using the example you mentioned with women being used inapproprately in advertising, it seems that instead of fighting to prevent this, we are trying to equal it, with men now also being used inappropriately as well, although certainly not to the same extent. We see the same trend with Prostitution, although it is masked by using the term 'Male Escorts'. I am finding this difficult to put into the right words, so forgive me if I get it wrong. What I am trying to say is that in womens fight for equality, have we actually stopped to asked ourselves if this is something we actually WANT to be equal to.

    Violence perpetrated by the female gender is rising at quite an alarming rate, to the extent that in the not too distant future, women will be equal to men when it comes to violence. Is that what we want? I know I sure don't!

    I also believe that whilst not explicitly, men are told that they can't do something simply because of their gender. When suing for custody or access to their children, men fight an uphill battle in the courts, and as a result, the financial costs are very high. Therefore, unless the father is financially able to fight that long, drawn out fight, he can't. And why should it be up to Men to fight for these changes themselves? It wasn't only women who fought for women's rights ~ there were men too.

    Regarding my use of Cancer as an example, it is one that I stand by. Neither sex likes to have intrusive testing done, whether that be vaginal or anal! Yet the amount of funding that has been poured into arming women with knowledge about the cancers that affect their sex etc. is greatly disproportionate (sp?) to the amount that is put into cancers which only affect men. Fortunately, this year it seems that we are finally beginning to see a change, specifically in the area of prostate cancer, and I can only hope that this continues.
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    Re: Yochana's (Tikva's) feminism thread "liberated" from SC.

    Post  Psalter on Wed Sep 23, 2009 10:40 am

    Diaz wrote:Feminism is about equality, not about diminishing the rights of others. IMO men have not lost out in many ways because the pre-existing rights they had stayed the same after feminism became an issue, and in many ways society in general has lost sight of why women fought in the first place. It's not about who does the dishes. This is more about social attitudes, many of which die hard. Those gender stereotyping ads being just an example, I could complain about the number of times sex is used to sell and that it disproportionately shows women in sexual poses, often in inappropriate settings.

    More to the point, are men told they can't do something simply because of their gender? Do they get disbarred from setting up support services for men who are victims of domestic violence, or are they barred from lobbying their MP for a law change to the crimes act regarding assaults, or even stopped in suing to be a custodial parent? It's having that right that's important even if it's not taken up. That the police are unhelpful sometimes is not unique to gender, you could say that about their disinterest in following up burglaries. Seems to me that a lot of this stuff could be solved by men themselves if it truly is an issue, it doesn't help very much to complain about perceived injustices when action could be taken to solve the problem instead.

    I wouldn't use cancer as an example, each cancer is different. Some affect both men and women, others are gender specific but each has their own challenges of diagnosis and treatment. I'd love if society changed some attitudes, women as a whole accept cervical screening which is a tad invasive and involves having a speculum inserted into the vagina....but try a rectal digital check on males and most won't let you near them within a million miles. Problem is, that test could improve detection and even save a life even if it is unpleasant.

    But men have lost some of those rights. Once, the word of a man carried more weight in law than the word of a woman. Now, custodial evidence would suggest that this is reversed. The rigmarole that I had to go through to bring charges against the female that broke my nose, gave me two black eyes, and cut my face says the same about the police. AND throughout the whole thing I had 3 witnesses, AAAANNNDDD I still had to answer to queries of sexual assault. Now, if this wasn't a question of sex/gender, and rather one of ethnicity, there would be a great din in the press... but alas, I am only a male... a white male... a young white male.

    Sexism, racism, ageism, and other discriminatory isms don't need to be legislated to have societal effect, the damaging results come from the symbolic violence and implicit devaluation of a male's position.

    Yes, we can speak out... our legal right to make a fuss has not been removed, but look at the thread that I put above with MykOdD; we are not taken seriously as a minority discourse, men should "just get over it" in our society. I watched a comedy show not too long ago and one of the comedians says "us white males are left out in the cold these days, when is it going to be our turn to have our rights recognised?" (or something to that effect). Being a comedy show, and people being fucken idiots, the audience cracked up... any other group saying the same thing, and it wouldn't be a joke, it would be a political cry. Now, I know that this is easily rebutted with "in recent history the white male had everything, every right, and these other groups you speak of had none" but I would swiftly counter with the question "are pendulum politics the way to right anything?"

    Females being scantily clad on billboards and whatnot... yes, this happens, yes I am a fan of the female human form, but no, I don't like the sexualisation of modern society. I think we will be looked back on with disgust inmthe History books. But anyway, the fact that women choose to present themselves in this way says a lot about them and less about society... maybe. Regardless, the fact that you choose to define the models that are advertising with sex as female says a lot about sexism in society anyway. Males appear in the same sorts of billboards, Daniel Carter etc. but apparently men cannot be sexualised and exploited but women can.

    Cancer: well, you are bang on.
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    Re: Yochana's (Tikva's) feminism thread "liberated" from SC.

    Post  relict on Wed Sep 23, 2009 11:25 am

    Diaz wrote:More to the point, are men told they can't do something simply because of their gender? Do they get disbarred from setting up support services for men who are victims of domestic violence, or are they barred from lobbying their MP for a law change to the crimes act regarding assaults, or even stopped in suing to be a custodial parent? It's having that right that's important even if it's not taken up. ... Seems to me that a lot of this stuff could be solved by men themselves if it truly is an issue, it doesn't help very much to complain about perceived injustices when action could be taken to solve the problem instead.

    Sounds similar to the argument that lecturers don't need to know about the culture of their students in order to be effective - if students really want to learn they will listen no matter what the format of delivery - they are given the same opportunities so the responsibility lies with them 100%. In reality, when lecturers are aware of the learning styles and cultures of their students, and consider those things when deciding how they will deliver learning opportunities, everyone benefits.

    In the same way, when men and their issues are acknowledged and respected and valued by individuals, statutes and society as a whole, women benefit too!
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    Re: Yochana's (Tikva's) feminism thread "liberated" from SC.

    Post  Wizz on Wed Sep 23, 2009 3:09 pm

    I just posted in the cemetery thread which was drowning at the bottom of a sea of posts about Home and Away and Johnson and Johnson.

    I looked in here last night but felt too tired to formulate my thoughts. I wanted to respond to the posts about differences in physical strength. The superior physical strength which enables more men to participate in some better paid professions is also what prevents them from being taken seriously when laying assault charges against women right?

    I don't believe that either is fair and I think it's dangerous to generalise in either instance. I have seen some very small women who are incredibly strong. They would be equally capable of landing a heavy punch or hefting bits of four by two around. I have seen large men who are less capable of doing either. I think women should be equally accountable in the one instance and equally paid in the other.

    The issue of pay equity for is one area where I don't think the w omen's movement has gone far enough. The male dominated professions such as building and engineering are still way better paid than the female dominated ones such as nursing and care giving. I know that the former are revenue generating and there is no profit to be made from the latter but the professions are vital and require a high level of integrity and dedication. They should be better paid.
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    Re: Yochana's (Tikva's) feminism thread "liberated" from SC.

    Post  relict on Wed Sep 23, 2009 3:28 pm

    Wizz wrote:I just posted in the cemetery thread which was drowning

    And a great post it was too! I thought of copying it in here, but then thought that is probably not my place, being that you could do that yourself if you wanted to.
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    Re: Yochana's (Tikva's) feminism thread "liberated" from SC.

    Post  Wizz on Wed Sep 23, 2009 3:35 pm

    [/quote]

    And a great post it was too! I thought of copying it in here, but then thought that is probably not my place, being that you could do that yourself if you wanted to.[/quote]

    I wouldn't object. I'm just trying to spread myself around so I'm not ranting too long in either place. Wink
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    Re: Yochana's (Tikva's) feminism thread "liberated" from SC.

    Post  Psalter on Wed Sep 23, 2009 3:36 pm

    Wizz wrote:

    The issue of pay equity for is one area where I don't think the w omen's movement has gone far enough. The male dominated professions such as building and engineering are still way better paid than the female dominated ones such as nursing and care giving. I know that the former are revenue generating and there is no profit to be made from the latter but the professions are vital and require a high level of integrity and dedication. They should be better paid.

    Oh indeed... you should have seen Erin come home a few years ago... she had been working at the same place for 4 years, had her masters, and was babysitter to a guy that had been working there 2 years, also had his masters but was a complete moron... to the point that Erin would be home 2 hours late for fixing his mistakes or completely re-running his experiments. Anyway, one day she finds his payslip in the printer... having an insatiable curiosity and little conscience in these matters, she looks at it... $5,000 a year extra than her!

    Made me sick to hear that. She still fixes his mistakes, but she has also had more, and greater pay rises than he... she also has 40% higher production than he... she is now only $1,000ish lower than him.

    The boss changed from male to female, the new boss saw what was going on and has been taking every available step to make it right. Baby steps.


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    Re: Yochana's (Tikva's) feminism thread "liberated" from SC.

    Post  Wizz on Wed Sep 23, 2009 3:45 pm

    Psalter wrote:

    Made me sick to hear that. She still fixes his mistakes, but she has also had more, and greater pay rises than he... she also has 40% higher production than he... she is now only $1,000ish lower than him.


    That is so fucked up! Has she talked to a union rep?
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    Re: Yochana's (Tikva's) feminism thread "liberated" from SC.

    Post  Psalter on Wed Sep 23, 2009 3:53 pm

    Wizz wrote:
    Psalter wrote:

    Made me sick to hear that. She still fixes his mistakes, but she has also had more, and greater pay rises than he... she also has 40% higher production than he... she is now only $1,000ish lower than him.


    That is so fucked up! Has she talked to a union rep?

    Nah, I encouraged her to go to HR when she first found out but she's too meek.
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    Re: Yochana's (Tikva's) feminism thread "liberated" from SC.

    Post  relict on Wed Sep 23, 2009 4:11 pm

    Wizz wrote:
    relict wrote:I thought of copying it in here, but then thought that is probably not my place, being that you could do that yourself if you wanted to.

    I wouldn't object. I'm just trying to spread myself around so I'm not ranting too long in either place. Wink

    I'll copy it here, lest it gets deleted. I thought it summed things up nicely. And next time you want to spread yourself around, couldja give us the best please? Razz

    Wizz wrote:
    jordan15 wrote:Women have long felt undersold through being treated as sex objects and brood sows. Men's complaints centred on being treated as a walking wallet.

    So we have both managed to break the mold to some extent. Women are increasingly being appreciated for their minds. Men are increasingly being appreciated for their bodies. It looks like "mission accomplished" all round. Or does it?

    Good post jordan. Ideally the movement should have emancipated women and men. Women to work outside the home and have control over their fertility, men to be relieved of sole financial responsibility and to have more time with family. We should now be 'free' to build our lives as we choose. So why isn't it working for everyone?

    Many reasons...economics, human nature, lack of supportive government policies etc etc. The leaders of the movement were middle-class, educated women whose partners were supportive men or other women. They did not have full awareness of how their actions would impact on their working class 'sisters' and their families.

    I am grateful for the changes the era brought. I am grateful that my life is easier than my grandmother's was. I am grateful that the DPB was available when I needed it but I'm sad that some young women now see the benefit as a lifestyle choice. I'm grateful that men have more time to spend being fathers but sad that many choose to opt out. I am grateful that women have career options but sad that some choose them over family. I am sad that an increasing number of women are physically abusive to their partners (yeah... big ups Steve). I am sad that an increasing number of women abandon their families.

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    Re: Yochana's (Tikva's) feminism thread "liberated" from SC.

    Post  Diaz on Wed Sep 23, 2009 4:41 pm

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    Re: Yochana's (Tikva's) feminism thread "liberated" from SC.

    Post  Tikva on Wed Sep 23, 2009 11:21 pm

    Diaz wrote:"Regarding my use of Cancer as an example, it is one that I stand by. Neither sex likes to have intrusive testing done, whether that be vaginal or anal! Yet the amount of funding that has been poured into arming women with knowledge about the cancers that affect their sex etc. is greatly disproportionate (sp?) to the amount that is put into cancers which only affect men. Fortunately, this year it seems that we are finally beginning to see a change, specifically in the area of prostate cancer, and I can only hope that this continues."

    Then you can show me the stat's and the funding numbers showing that men are short-changed. Hopefully it's not just that there is an new ad campaign on at the moment that gives the impression that male cancer rates have been ignored and now it's a hot topic, because that is not the case.

    I could complain about women and the high death rate from Ovarian cancer too, and claim this as an gender issue. I would be wrong though, as it's a 'silent' cancer and often detected late. I could also complain about screening for Prostate cancer as a gender issue but I'd be wrong there too, as there are some complex issues relating to the amount of false positives that come up that mean many men would undergo unnecessary testing and treatment. Most people wouldn't even know that Prostate screening has been the subject of a couple of large clinical trials overseas recently and is the subject of a literature review at the MOH at the moment, but just because they don't know this doesn't mean that specific cancers are ignored and not funded on the basis of gender.

    I don't need statistics, Diaz ~ all I have to do is be observant enough to see that there is far more advertising put into cancers that affect women, encouraging them to get regular checks etc., than there is put into advertising in relation to Prostate Cancer, and encouraging Men to get regular checks. In fact it was when I was visiting the Doctors a few months ago that I first became aware of the number of deaths from Prostate Cancer, as there was a poster on the wall near where I was sitting.

    And I do not believe I have ever stated that male cancer rates have been ignored.

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    Re: Yochana's (Tikva's) feminism thread "liberated" from SC.

    Post  Diaz on Thu Sep 24, 2009 3:35 am

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    Re: Yochana's (Tikva's) feminism thread "liberated" from SC.

    Post  Tikva on Thu Sep 24, 2009 11:27 am

    Advertising? So it is that it's late but awareness campaigns or the lack thereof coupled with the fact that you're relying on the odd time at the doctors to inform you does not mean that you can discard actually examining the facts of the topic for which you are making claims about. Making an observation is all well and good, but no one can know whether it's correct unless it's tested against reality. Awareness campaigns and/or the existence of screening programmes do not inform about funding and research, full stop. It is a reflection of the fact that screening programmes must be cost effective, specific and have a low rate of false positives and negatives. Therefore, cervical screening is advertised because there is a simple test available. Because you can look directly at the cells, it's highly specific and has a low rate of false positives and negatives and is also fairly cheap to run.

    In contrast, the Prostate is inside the body, the current blood tests are non-specific and can be raised in benign conditions of the Prostate leading to unnecessary testing and the rate of false positives is high. In addition, many Prostate cancer are slow growing and wouldn't actually pose much of a problem, but again there is the issue that we can't identify which ones are fine being monitored and which ones are aggressive so this creates the problem of over-treatment and putting the person through all of that with no clear idea of which individual will benefit. Funding is going into looking for better tests, looking at those issues and improving treatment, but until then because of those problems making men generally aware of the issue and making a individual decision on screening with the guidance of their GP based on factors such as family history is the best way to approach this. None of this means that there is less funding for cancers affecting men, what it does mean is that the approach is very different according to the different cancers.

    Yes, I could attempt to gather together statistics which support my claim regarding funding, but to be honest, I do not have either the time nor the inclination.

    More Advertising = More Funding. Cancers which affect Women have had a LOT of advertising through various media in comparison to cancers which affect men. And I am not 'relying' on the 'odd time at the doctors' to inform me about anything. My point in mentioning that was simply that it was then that I became aware of the statistics regarding Prostate Cancer, and also that my awareness had nothing whatsoever to do with the current Ad Campaign.

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