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    Yochana's (Tikva's) feminism thread "liberated" from SC.

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    Psalter
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    Yochana's (Tikva's) feminism thread "liberated" from SC.

    Post  Psalter on Tue Sep 22, 2009 12:46 pm

    It is my belief that Feminism, in its' determination to bring equality between the sexes, has in a number of areas, gone too far.

    We have Womens Refuge, for when women have been the victims of Domestic Violence, but where are the Mens Refuges for when men are the victims of Domestic Violence?

    I know that there is a 'male assaults female' law that carries heavier penalties that assault in general, but where is the 'female assaults male" one, which also carries heavier penalties?

    Whilst we as a society readily accept Men as the abusers, and Women as the victims, we appear to find it difficult to accept that there are Women who are the abusers, and Men who are the victims

    We have many resources and funding put into Cancers that affect women, but why is it that there does not appear to be the same put into Cancers that affect men?

    Men often find it very difficult to obtain custody of their children through the Courts, or access to visitation of their children, as 'mothers' seem to considered the more appropriate person to raise the children.

    No doubt, there are many more areas in which Women seem to be 'favoured' more than Men, so feel free to add more.

    Discuss?
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    Re: Yochana's (Tikva's) feminism thread "liberated" from SC.

    Post  Psalter on Tue Sep 22, 2009 12:58 pm

    Women have set up these places to help those that are abused etc,women are the ones who speak out about abuse etc,I think it is the responsibility of men to support other men with refuges and the like.

    Movember raised heaps of awareness for mens cancers.

    The court system today is no where near as biased as it used to be re women getting custody.

    I have no sympathy for men not getting a fair suck of the sav(which I dont believe is happening)

    Lets face it if men had periods tampons would be free.

    Woody67.


    Simply, men do get a raw deal... the way I was treated by all levels of the local constabulary when I was assaulted by a female shows how men are regarded.

    It permeates all of society too; there was a doco a few years back that talked about the negative stereotypes of males in the media and how they contrast with negative stereotypes of females. I forget the exact figure, but the ratio of negative adverts containing males to females was beyond 5:1... I doubt it has changed.

    On Saturday Erin and I were walking down Hamilton town and there is a giant billboard proclaiming "men never listen, but ... " (I forget the rest, it's not important though) and I got to wondering what would happen if we made a billboard saying "women, at least they have tits"... how do you think it would go down? They're both tongue-in-cheek jokes.

    Men have become part of the minority discourse because we can't defend ourselves and something needs to give.
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    Re: Yochana's (Tikva's) feminism thread "liberated" from SC.

    Post  ChelseaT on Tue Sep 22, 2009 1:11 pm

    Psalter wrote:On Saturday Erin and I were walking down Hamilton town and there is a giant billboard proclaiming "men never listen, but ... " (I forget the rest, it's not important though) and I got to wondering what would happen if we made a billboard saying "women, at least they have tits"... how do you think it would go down? They're both tongue-in-cheek jokes.

    Men have become part of the minority discourse because we can't defend ourselves and something needs to give.

    The billboard is for hearing aids and it says "Men never listen but it's nice to know they can".

    Also, generally speaking (don't count Islander women) men ARE stronger and more able to defend themselves. Again there is heavier sentencing for child abuse because the children are defensless.

    I think male assualts female and child abuse could possibly be grouped together as assault on someone who's defensless and then would be judged depending on the situation.
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    Re: Yochana's (Tikva's) feminism thread "liberated" from SC.

    Post  Psalter on Tue Sep 22, 2009 1:12 pm

    And domestic violence? The message we get is that it is weird for men to be victims... that females are not perpetrators.

    I Googled "domestic violence stats NZ" and got these links as my top 4.

    http://www.2shine.org.nz/index.php?section=1

    http://www.kirklaw.co.nz/folio/lwf.ns4/files/stats.htm

    http://www.police.govt.nz/safety/home.domesticviolence.html

    http://library.canterbury.ac.nz/web/ref/justicestat.shtml

    The fifth link is for men...

    http://www.menz.org.nz/Information/domestic.htm

    Now, lets revisit the first link and find some facts on domestic violence:



    1 in 3 NZ women experience physical and/or sexual abuse at the hands of a partner throughout their lifetime. (Fanslow and Robinson, 2004)
    A woman is killed by her (ex)partner every 3.7 weeks
    Between 20 November 2005 and 3 January 2006, six women were killed by their partners or previous partners - leaving 19 children orphaned.
    During December 2005 and January 2006, NZ Police attended nearly 11,000 instances of reported family violence - this is about one incident every eight minutes.
    Women’s Refuge provided services to 17,773 women and 12,161 children during 2005/06.
    In a NZ Department of Justice study, 1 in 5 men admitted to assaulting their partners in the last year (Leibrich, Paulin, Ransom, 1995)
    In 2000, 50% of homicides in NZ were family violence related (NZ Police Internal Report, 2003)
    In 2005, 29 of 61 murders were domestic violence related.
    During December 2005 and January 2006, NZ Police attended nearly 11,000 instances of reported family violence - this is one incident every eight minutes.
    In December 2005, CYFS received over 5,000 notifications of suspected child abuse.
    12 children are killed every year in New Zealand. Most deaths are caused by people responsible for the child’s care (Kotch, Chalmers, Fanslow, 1993)
    The co-relationship between child abuse and partner abuse is estimated to be between 45-65% (Edelson, 1999)
    About 10 children are killed every year in New Zealand by a member(s) of their family.
    Around 22% of New Zealand girls and 10% of New Zealand boys have experienced sexual abuse (Anderson 1993, Youth 2000).
    Only 12% of all victims of abuse ever come to the notice of the justice system
    The annual cost of family violence in New Zealand is at least $1.2 billion – this conservative figure based on notifications to police is more than the $1.0 billion earned from our wool exports in 1993-1994 (Sniveley, 1994)
    Police deal with more than 70,000 family violence calls a year but estimate only 18% of incidents are reported.
    Police attend 120 calls a day to incidents of family violence.
    In 2005 Police attended 63,685 incidents of violence and estimate that at least 62,625
    children and young people aged under 17 were involved.
    The Domestic Purposes Benefit gives options for abused women and enables them to take a stand against violent child rearing. Most spend less that 3 years on the DPB (Nixon and McCulloch, 1994)
    Abused women are five times more likely to need mental health services and three times more likely to need other health services. Violence causes severe health deterioration across all mental and physical health measures (Elvidge, 1997)

    What about the second link?

    n 2005 there were 27 domestic violence related murders, 24 involving men killing a partner - or the woman's new partner. Three of the cases were of women killing men.
    Show your true colours, Anna Chalmers, The Dominion Post, 22 November 2006

    Women's Refuge assisted 13,729 women and 10,053 children during 2003. Approximately 30% of these were repeat clients.
    Statistics New Zealand, Focusing on Women (2005)

    Each year 11 women die and about 400 women are hospitalised due to assault.
    Aotearoa New Zealand NGO's shadow report to CEDAW Monitoring Committee (2002)

    15 - 20% of women reported having experienced physical or sexual abuse and 44 - 53% of women having experienced psychological abuse in 2001.
    Aotearoa New Zealand NGO's shadow report to CEDAW Monitoring Committee (2002)

    50% of all homicides of New Zealand women are committed by the woman's partner or ex-partner.
    New Zealand 5th Periodic Report to CEDAW - The Status of Women in New Zealand (2002)

    3% of women reported being afraid that their partners might kill them.
    New Zealand 5th Periodic Report to CEDAW - The Status of Women in New Zealand (2002)

    15% of residents in women's refuges had a permanent disability as the result of battering.



    Oh, how interesting... nowhere in these "facts" does it mention that men die as a result of domestic violence at the hands of their partners, nor that females abuse children.(EDIT: Well, actually it does, first line... but the point remains the same, if we look at the figures below, we see men die at around 25% the rate women do from D violence)

    Lets look at the realities and myths section for some clarity shall we? (First link).

    Myths and Realities

    People make a big deal about domestic violence, but it's not that common.
    One in three NZ women experience physical and/or sexual abuse throughout their lifetime at the hands of a partner. Women and children are more at risk of violence in their homes than in the street. As a private crime behind closed doors, domestic violence never shows up in statistics as much as it occurs.

    She asked for it /she probably deserved it.
    No-one has the right to abuse another person. Drunk or sober, provocative or agreeable, everyone has the right to be safe from violence. By focusing on provocation, we excuse the person actually committing the violence. Violence against women is a criminal act. Violence against any person is a criminal act.

    Why doesn't she leave?
    Many people do not understand why the battered woman doesn't leave. Most victims who stay in a violent relationship recognise that if they take steps to leave, they risk the violence escalating. If your partner has threatened to kill you and your children, you will think very carefully before you put yourself or your family at greater risk. Most victims do not have enough support from outside the relationship to leave safely. Most women in seriously violent relationships eventually do leave, but may take a long time to get out, leaving and returning several times. We need to understand leaving as a process rather than a one-off event.

    It will get better.
    The longer the violence continues, the more serious the violence becomes. The relationship will only get better once the abuser stops violent and controlling behaviour.

    Middle-class women are not the victims of violence as much as working-class women.
    Violence occurs across all classes and socio-economic groups. Wealthy abusers use their resources to control their family. Violence is reported less often amongst higher socio-economic groups, who have more to lose from a criminal record.

    Women in violent relationships are uneducated.
    The formal education of women in relationships with abusers ranges from no qualification to doctorate.

    Women in violent relationships are crazy.
    This myth focuses blame on women and negative personality characteristics. Research shows that abusers and victims are no more crazy than people in non-violent relationships. "Crazy" behaviour adopted by some women may be their best attempt to survive in a very difficult situation.

    Children need fathers.
    Children need safety and security, not abuse. Children who grow up in families where there is violence are emotionally scarred and often repeat similar patterns in their own families. Fathers can choose to be non-violent with their women partners and children.

    Drinking causes violence.
    Alcohol and other drug abuse doesn't cause violence but may act as a "trigger" and increase the severity of the abuse. It is often used as an excuse for violence. Many violent offenders do not abuse alcohol or drugs, or may not be violent when intoxicated. Violent offenders who abuse alcohol or drugs need to address both problems. Continuing alcohol or drug abuse will reduce the effectiveness of stopping violence programmes.

    Religious men are not violent.
    Men who have religious beliefs are just as likely as other men to be violent. Religious beliefs often stress male superiority in the household. This thinking underlies violence as men believe they are justified to punish women and children for not being obedient.

    Women are just as violent as men.
    Some studies have shown that women are just as violent as men in heterosexual relationships. However, while some women may use violence towards their male partners, it is usually always men who use systematic violence for the purposes of instilling fear and dominating their partner. Statistics show us that it is usually women and children who are the victims of domestic violence.

    Violent men are not loving partners.
    Many violent men are at times loving, sensitive and playful. It may be this side of his personality which attracted women to him initially and induces the woman to stay.

    Violent men cannot control their violence.
    Men often believe this which enables them to avoid taking responsibility for their own behaviour. Violence is a tactic of choice - men choose who, when and where they abuse. Most men who are violent to their partners appear reasonable and "respectable" outside the family.

    Domestic violence is a heterosexual thing and is rare in lesbian and gay relationships.
    There is the same incidence of domestic violence in lesbian and gay relationships as in heterosexual relationships. The abuser may be the larger or the smaller partner, and there can be different tactics of control used, i.e. one partner may threaten to out the other partner to her family or employer.



    Oh, females do abuse but it is not as serious... good to know.


    Last edited by Psalter on Tue Sep 22, 2009 1:29 pm; edited 2 times in total
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    Re: Yochana's (Tikva's) feminism thread "liberated" from SC.

    Post  Psalter on Tue Sep 22, 2009 1:15 pm

    ChelseaT wrote:
    Psalter wrote:On Saturday Erin and I were walking down Hamilton town and there is a giant billboard proclaiming "men never listen, but ... " (I forget the rest, it's not important though) and I got to wondering what would happen if we made a billboard saying "women, at least they have tits"... how do you think it would go down? They're both tongue-in-cheek jokes.

    Men have become part of the minority discourse because we can't defend ourselves and something needs to give.

    The billboard is for hearing aids and it says "Men never listen but it's nice to know they can".

    Also, generally speaking (don't count Islander women) men ARE stronger and more able to defend themselves. Again there is heavier sentencing for child abuse because the children are defensless.

    I think male assualts female and child abuse could possibly be grouped together as assault on someone who's defensless and then would be judged depending on the situation.

    That's the one, I thought it said that but I didn't want to be wrong. Very Happy

    But the female that assaulted me was taller than me (I am 6 ft 2) and heavier than me (I was 90kg)... I was defenceless because my ability to defend myself against a female is curtailed ny my culture and the law (as was later proven).
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    Re: Yochana's (Tikva's) feminism thread "liberated" from SC.

    Post  ChelseaT on Tue Sep 22, 2009 1:26 pm

    Psalter wrote:I got to wondering what would happen if we made a billboard saying "women, at least they have tits"... how do you think it would go down? They're both tongue-in-cheek jokes.

    "Cook the man some fucking eggs" still used as a tongue in cheek joke.
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    Re: Yochana's (Tikva's) feminism thread "liberated" from SC.

    Post  Psalter on Tue Sep 22, 2009 1:30 pm

    Indeed it is... but in advertising?

    Not that I am aware of.
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    Re: Yochana's (Tikva's) feminism thread "liberated" from SC.

    Post  Donkeycheese on Tue Sep 22, 2009 1:39 pm

    Psalter wrote:

    But the female that assaulted me was taller than me (I am 6 ft 2) and heavier than me (I was 90kg)...

    Did she also have a bigger cock than you? I hate it when that happens!
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    Re: Yochana's (Tikva's) feminism thread "liberated" from SC.

    Post  Psalter on Tue Sep 22, 2009 1:45 pm

    Happen a bit?

    Fuck knows, I didn't look down her pants... seriously, I wouldn't have fucked her with that tiny thing you call your dick... actually, I think that was part of the reason she got upset.
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    Tough Guise

    Post  relict on Tue Sep 22, 2009 1:49 pm

    Anyone seen 'Tough Guise'?

    A review of it

    Short (54 minute) video edition to view it

    Long (85 minute) video edition to view it

    It was made quite a few years ago now, and for high school students, though I think it (or an updated video covering the same issues) should be more widely viewed.
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    Re: Yochana's (Tikva's) feminism thread "liberated" from SC.

    Post  Donkeycheese on Tue Sep 22, 2009 1:56 pm

    Psalter wrote:Happen a bit?

    Fuck knows, I didn't look down her pants... seriously, I wouldn't have fucked her with that tiny thing you call your dick... actually, I think that was part of the reason she got upset.

    my dicks not tiny

    It just hasn't gone through its growth spurt yet

    and my penis pump will give me so much more!!
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    Re: Yochana's (Tikva's) feminism thread "liberated" from SC.

    Post  Psalter on Tue Sep 22, 2009 2:03 pm

    Really good, I might use those videos at school... it only had the extract there in those links though.
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    Re: Yochana's (Tikva's) feminism thread "liberated" from SC.

    Post  relict on Tue Sep 22, 2009 2:09 pm

    I managed to download it a few months ago, without searching too hard. I'd saved those links but didn't check them today, sorry. But I thought they at least pointed in the direction for downloading.
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    Re: Yochana's (Tikva's) feminism thread "liberated" from SC.

    Post  Tikva on Tue Sep 22, 2009 2:19 pm

    Thanks for bringing this topic up here as well, Psalter. I also searched the internet to find any New Zealand resources for Men who are the victims of Domestic Violence by their Female partner, but came up empty handed. Yet when you search for Women who are the victims, many results are given.

    Part of what prompted me to write that post was learning that someone I know (very well) had been in a relationship with a woman for 2 1/2 years. It is only recently that I learned that it was an abusive relationship, and that he had been assaulted by her on numerous occasions, including one time when she broke his guitar over his head. He took it, didn't do anything about it, until she once again punched him, and he just lost complete control of himself. Now, he is in Prison on Remand, because SHE has laid a complaint with the Police, SHE has obtained a Protection Order against HIM, and he is not even allowed to see his young Son!!

    To me, that is just plain wrong.
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    Re: Yochana's (Tikva's) feminism thread "liberated" from SC.

    Post  relict on Tue Sep 22, 2009 2:23 pm

    I think it is too simplistic to say that feminism has gone too far or not far enough. It is more useful to break things down into more specific situations and look at the underlying principles, and ask if the values we believe in are portrayed in those situations.

    But even then stuff isn't simple. For example, I think the majority of NZers under 50 years old would agree that women and men doing exactly the same job equally well should be paid the same. But it is rarely possible to prove that a man and a woman are performing identically in their jobs, even if they have the same job description. So it comes down to the personal values and integrity of the people in power.

    Since laws often have loopholes, I think the best way for change is in teaching children to think critically, rather than relying on legislation to make things fair.

    So hurry up Psalter! Razz
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    Re: Yochana's (Tikva's) feminism thread "liberated" from SC.

    Post  relict on Tue Sep 22, 2009 2:34 pm

    Tikva wrote:it was an abusive relationship ... he had been assaulted by her on numerous occasions, including one time when she broke his guitar over his head. He took it, didn't do anything about it, until she once again punched him, and he just lost complete control of himself. Now, he is in Prison on Remand, because SHE has laid a complaint with the Police, SHE has obtained a Protection Order against HIM, and he is not even allowed to see his young Son!!

    Grr at her, and that his voice was lost. Evil or Very Mad

    Though, I wonder if it is almost too late for such a situation once it reaches the courts - it took years of upbringing/experience (all parties involved) to reach the point where justice failed. I can totally understand the man taking stuff lying down, and not at the very least documenting it, but it does make it more difficult to prove his case later.
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    Re: Yochana's (Tikva's) feminism thread "liberated" from SC.

    Post  Psalter on Tue Sep 22, 2009 2:37 pm

    Right on it chief.

    But as an example of men not being able to defend themselves, go to this thread

    http://www.smilecity.co.nz/Community/ForumPost.aspx?topicid=166662


    Sure, he may have been having a whinge, he (at the time) could have got another job... but why should he have to? Shouldn't his greater contribution be valued fiscally? Or shouldn't equality trump chivalry?

    But I am chivalrous... and I expect to get paid more in most jobs because I can do more by virtue of my strength which is related to my maleness.
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    Re: Yochana's (Tikva's) feminism thread "liberated" from SC.

    Post  relict on Tue Sep 22, 2009 2:51 pm

    Psalter wrote:I expect to get paid more in most jobs because I can do more by virtue of my strength which is related to my maleness.

    That is fair enough, but I was talking about all things being hypothetically equal. That would usually only be possible to prove in retrospect, and on average, when a man and a woman doing tightly defined work with easily measurable outputs (for example, on parallel production lines in a factory) took the same amount of sick leave, etc over a period of five years or so, and even then, it would be an estimate.
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    Re: Yochana's (Tikva's) feminism thread "liberated" from SC.

    Post  Psalter on Tue Sep 22, 2009 2:59 pm

    Oh, for sure.
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    Re: Yochana's (Tikva's) feminism thread "liberated" from SC.

    Post  Tikva on Tue Sep 22, 2009 6:13 pm

    Though, I wonder if it is almost too late for such a situation once it reaches the courts - it took years of upbringing/experience (all parties involved) to reach the point where justice failed. I can totally understand the man taking stuff lying down, and not at the very least documenting it, but it does make it more difficult to prove his case later.

    More than likely it is too late, although she was convicted of something like 'intent to injure', if my memory serves me correctly. Sadly, what is even worse is that their Son might also be 'at risk' of her abuse.

    One good thing though is that he has no intention whatsoever of ever going back to her, so at least he didn't put up with it for longer than he might have had he not reacted this time.
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    Re: Yochana's (Tikva's) feminism thread "liberated" from SC.

    Post  relict on Tue Sep 22, 2009 6:30 pm

    That's something then.
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    Re: Yochana's (Tikva's) feminism thread "liberated" from SC.

    Post  Tikva on Tue Sep 22, 2009 10:24 pm

    I'm probably walking on dangerous ground here, but I personally believe that men are (in general) physcially stronger than women, and for jobs which require that kind of strength, he should be paid more. Unless their performance/output is equal, in which case they should be paid the same.

    Just because Men and Women are (or should be) equal, does not mean that there are not differences between us (apart from the very obvious ones) that do in fact make one or the other sex better at certain jobs.
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    Re: Yochana's (Tikva's) feminism thread "liberated" from SC.

    Post  Waireka on Tue Sep 22, 2009 10:40 pm

    Tikva wrote:I'm probably walking on dangerous ground here, but I personally believe that men are (in general) physcially stronger than women, and for jobs which require that kind of strength, he should be paid more. Unless their performance/output is equal, in which case they should be paid the same.

    Just because Men and Women are (or should be) equal, does not mean that there are not differences between us (apart from the very obvious ones) that do in fact make one or the other sex better at certain jobs.

    I agree.

    Jobs where male staff are sent out to collect trolleys (Warehouse) because they are stronger, or better suited to go out in the dark, where men are assigned to do the heavy lifting etc...
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    Re: Yochana's (Tikva's) feminism thread "liberated" from SC.

    Post  relict on Tue Sep 22, 2009 10:49 pm

    Tikva wrote:... differences between us (apart from the very obvious ones) that do in fact make one or the other sex better at certain jobs.

    It would be more accurate if you said:

    ... differences between us (apart from the very obvious ones) that do in fact make one or the other sex better, on average, at certain jobs.

    Men, on average, are stronger than women.

    If you say a man would be more likely to be the most suitable for a vacancy, that is not discrimination.
    If you turn down a stronger woman to employ a weaker man, because men on average would be better, that is silly.
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    Re: Yochana's (Tikva's) feminism thread "liberated" from SC.

    Post  Jesus Christ on Tue Sep 22, 2009 11:05 pm

    I don't know if we want to get into measuring output of workers and then paying them according to what we perceive their usefulness to be, something which could be blindly influenced by gender. I think a better route to take is simply to allow the turning down of women for jobs on the basis that physical activity is involved, and they do not have the strength, and then a female gets the job by virtue of being strong enough, then pay her equally.

    Regarding the general point concerning Feminism, I think it would be good to establish exactly what we mean by the term. Many people take Feminism to be merely an advocation of women's rights, but in academic literature Feminism is often regarded, even by Feminists themselves, as a grand theory akin to Marxism, which sees the entire world through a single social lens: gender.

    I'm sure our understanding of Feminism in this thread is roughly somewhere between those two extremes, but I honestly consider anything above the former extreme to be somewhat dangerous; meddling in inequality for the sake of equality.

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    Re: Yochana's (Tikva's) feminism thread "liberated" from SC.

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