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    Feminist group proposing ban of Japanese "Rape simulator"

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    superarmy
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    Feminist group proposing ban of Japanese "Rape simulator"

    Post  superarmy on Mon May 11, 2009 6:11 pm

    source Sankaku Complex



    The anti-free speech feminist group “Equality Now” has apparently succeeded in forcing the publisher of “rape simulator” game RapeLay into withdrawing the game from sale, as the game has quietly disappeared completely from the publisher’s homepage, and the pages of most retailers.

    Equality Now, an anti-porn feminist group which organises its busybody members into campaigns of letter writing harassment intent on forcing officials into compliance, recently called for adult games featuring “violence against women and girls” to be banned (although tellingly they cited research from an explicitly “anti-pornography” group, rather suggesting their real aims are somewhat broader), after learning of Amazon’s recent bungling.

    The game’s publisher, Illusion, previously told the group to mind their own business as the game was solely for the Japanese market, and quite legal there.

    However, after the do-nothing group’s shrill call for a ban was published, mass media outlets hungry for Japan-bashing fare picked up the story.

    Strangely, none of the reports mentioned the fact that “violence against women” is almost twenty times more common in the US than it is in rape simulator world leader Japan, instead choosing to uncritically repeat the tired calumny that Japan is a rigid patriarchy in which women languish as practical chattel.

    This media attention seems to have tipped the balance somewhere, for at the time of writing, no mention of the game is to be found on Illusion’s pages. Prominent English language disclaimers remind international fans that their products are for use in Japan only.

    With no statement from Illusion, and no other information, the reasoning behind the utterly craven and reprehensible abandonment of free speech is not clear.

    Harder BDSM-centric titles are not a speciality of Illusion, so their other titles are mostly not along these lines. However, they are still stocking their “Battle Raper” series, which involves beating female opponents into sexual submission in a 3D fighting game interspersed with sex scenes. The demo is available here.

    You can read about the specific complaints made by Equality Now in the previous article, and if you are of a mind you can contact them from their page.

    This behaviour sets a disturbing precedent; there are many more extreme titles than RapeLay available in Japan, encompassing everything from AV to ero-manga; if publishers are willing to fold at the slightest breeze of criticism from a group which is not even Japanese, and from complaints without any legal weight whatsoever, it would appear their future is in doubt, as displays of weakness will only encourage further feminist aggression.



    Obvious that the above passage is heavily bias, but it's a bias I agree with. This issue first came to light when somebody put the game in question up on amazon US. Now this may seem to be a clear cut case, rape simulator how shocking, ban it. Well I personally object to it and have contacted the group stating my reasons with this email


    “Through various news outlets I became aware of your anti-free speech movement harassing politicians, distributors and producers themselves with letters containing your own propaganda to stop Japanese game developer Illusion Soft from producing a title called RapeLay. Now I believe the company had already replied with essentially “It’s none of your business” and provided legal proof of why they can make and distribute the game in Japan to their oh so niche market. I how ever will show you a different case of why you have bigger fish to fry before you pick on a game that would sell no more than 5,000 copies at best.

    Breaking the law in video games, or even film, TV or literature is nothing new, its more than often the premise upon which many stories are set, even dating back to the bible itself. Exactly why you seem to pick RapeLay, an obscure title only sanctioned for release in Japan is somewhat bewildering. Games like Grand Theft Auto nearly condone mass murder, theft and the namesake grand theft auto itself, whats worse is that the latest iteration this game has sold 6 million copies world wide, reaching and appealing to a far wider audience than Illusion Soft could ever hope to reach. “You’re forgetting one thing”, the more intelligent person would say,”This game is R18, (or equivalent wherever region) only people deemed to be adults are allowed to purchase this game, therefore shielding it from people who are deemed to be immature for the content it contains”. Indeed this person would be right, but it doesn’t change the fact it does in part globally provide a platform for glorifying violence against all genders and all ages. Indeed, if we are to walk down this very slippery slope of “You can’t do illegal things on multimedia platforms”, many movies would become inheritently dull, books, would no longer be as exciting and video gamers would be left with jumping on mushrooms and turtles until the animal right groups take that away from us too. I do understand that this does not fall under you mission statement (which is indeed a noble one as you have done great work and continue to campaign for great causes), but picking something out like this is pedantic and promotes a hefty double standard.

    It is also notable that Japan has one of the lowest rape rates in the developed world (source: United Nations), if such a game is only sold in Japan whilst they continue to have a rate substantially lower than many other countries there seems to be very little evidence that these sorts of games at all influence rape figures or sexually indecent crimes. One might even go far as to reach the conclusion (hypothetically) that these games somewhat buffer the rape figures. Consider that all the would be rapists of Japan are to busy sitting in their basements playing games like RapeLay, than to go out and rape people, most likely due from the vast differences in consequence between these two actions. If Japan did have substantially high rape figures I would fully support your cause as there could be a correlation between rape and these games, but the fact of the matter is, countries who are more prone to banning and censoring these sorts of media have higher rape rates. Correlation perhaps? Who knows.

    I do personally not support any game that actively promotes violence or violation of woman (or in fact anyone) but the fact of the matter is, this is censorship you are asking for, it’s anti-free speech, anti democracy scare mongering. I hope you read this email and reallocate your efforts to more deserving causes.”


    I am keen to get some insight on this, whatever spectrum you lean towards. Note, at least read my email before posting....
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    Re: Feminist group proposing ban of Japanese "Rape simulator"

    Post  master5o1 on Mon May 11, 2009 6:25 pm

    tl;dr

    Diaz
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    Re: Feminist group proposing ban of Japanese "Rape simulator"

    Post  Diaz on Mon May 11, 2009 9:50 pm

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    Re: Feminist group proposing ban of Japanese "Rape simulator"

    Post  Diaz on Mon May 11, 2009 10:05 pm

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    Re: Feminist group proposing ban of Japanese "Rape simulator"

    Post  superarmy on Mon May 11, 2009 10:26 pm

    I never said we don't need them, I said they are wasting their time with stuff like this, I think you many have missed the point. The company themselves has already proven that this game is legal in japan.

    <i>It doesn't matter how often violence or rape gets reported in Japan as compared to the USA.</i>

    Japan doesn't really have a problem with unreported cases, it's rather well known that the women take cases directly to the police, rather immediately too. Difference in culture I guess.

    <i>FFS They need a reality check. I'd send in female Ninja warriors to kick their asses if I had half a chance but sadly this isn't a game and I don't have superpowers. It doesn't matter how often violence or rape gets reported in Japan as compared to the USA. Note: I said reported, because it's likely the stats don't reflect the amount of actual crimes against women in either country nor their different legal systems. People always try and argue degrees of wrongness "Grand Theft Auto is bad and they have that available too..." or make ill-founded assertions of correlation, instead of explaining why in particular that material should be protected from criticism or has any merit at all. The writer simply avoids dealing with content, nor the applicable legal reasons why some material comes out with ratings and others might be banned. I don't think that they can think of any plausible reason without sounding, well, really bad.</i>


    Okay maybe you missed my point. I'll elaborate. The breaking of laws is a common theme in many movie's, games and literature. Anything from robbery, assault, rape and murder. Something I have never understood is these seemingly weird double standard. A murder in cold blood is being projected as not as bad as rape, murder is a common theme whether its glorification or just observation, for some reason rape is seen as a taboo that is even worse. Double standards again, as many feminists use. To condemn a work where someone breaks the law is somewhat weird as there are so many other examples of law-breaking influences out there, others that reach on a much grander scale. Why would an international feminist group worry about a niche game released only in Japan that would sell a couple of thousand copies at best, than say the distribution of Lolita, a book about a man who becomes sexually involved and obsessed with a 12 year old girl. Furthermore Lolita has sold millions world wide and is considered a masterpiece. As I mentioned, there is no evidence showing any sort of correlation between the two, there is not a single story of a women raped by a man who gained motivation from one of these games. Japan's rape figures per capita, show that it is 1.5 per 1000, contrast with New Zealand at 21 and USA at 28, the difference is PHENOMENAL.

    So why are they bothering, because they can't take on anyone but a struggling company in a niche market in an overseas country in the middle of a recession. It's pure attention seeking madness, as I mentioned, they have far more pressing issues that they could be tackling than this one.
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    Re: Feminist group proposing ban of Japanese "Rape simulator"

    Post  relict on Mon May 11, 2009 11:19 pm

    At first thought, I would not consider a movie that includes rape (often in the context of a story where the characters are developed, and their feelings and the after effects are shown) to be at all comparable to a game where the player can be a perpetrator of rape (I'm not sure if this is so in the game in question). Of course, characters can be developed in games too ... perhaps the biggest difference is just the making of it into a game.

    I had better add that I admit I am biased, due to being someone who doesn't usually play the computer/x-box/playstation types of action games at all.
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    Re: Feminist group proposing ban of Japanese "Rape simulator"

    Post  superarmy on Mon May 11, 2009 11:25 pm

    relict wrote:At first thought, I would not consider a movie that includes rape (often in the context of a story where the characters are developed, and their feelings and the after effects are shown) to be at all comparable to a game where the player can be a perpetrator of rape (I'm not sure if this is so in the game in question). Of course, characters can be developed in games to ... perhaps the biggest difference is just the making of it into a game.

    Is it not worth mentioning that games are equal if not more capable of delivering powerful messages compared to movies. Many will find in these sorts of "Dark Eroge" that either the protagonist dies or is somewhat turned by a revelation. I still have yet to find out why raping is worse than mass murder.
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    Re: Feminist group proposing ban of Japanese "Rape simulator"

    Post  relict on Mon May 11, 2009 11:59 pm

    superarmy wrote:I still have yet to find out why raping is worse than mass murder.

    It should not be.

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    Re: Feminist group proposing ban of Japanese "Rape simulator"

    Post  Diaz on Tue May 12, 2009 12:06 am

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    Re: Feminist group proposing ban of Japanese "Rape simulator"

    Post  Diaz on Tue May 12, 2009 12:15 am

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    Re: Feminist group proposing ban of Japanese "Rape simulator"

    Post  canterella on Tue May 12, 2009 7:31 am

    What next? should we legalise snuff movies with minors in the name of free speech? shouldn't there be any boundaries?
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    Re: Feminist group proposing ban of Japanese "Rape simulator"

    Post  master5o1 on Tue May 12, 2009 12:12 pm

    canterella wrote:What next? should we legalise snuff movies with minors in the name of free speech? shouldn't there be any boundaries?

    Sure why not. If you don't like it don't look at it.



    That said, I wouldn't like child pornography to be on television or in films. Something coming close to, maybe, but that is for the OFLC to decide with what is close to but not equal to.

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    Re: Feminist group proposing ban of Japanese "Rape simulator"

    Post  Diaz on Tue May 12, 2009 1:04 pm

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    Re: Feminist group proposing ban of Japanese "Rape simulator"

    Post  superarmy on Tue May 12, 2009 2:27 pm

    I have yet to seek down the CEDAW report that the group seems to reference, guess I'll just have to go with the September 2008 one which seems to be full of praise of Japan's reforms made through out the years since it's last report, especially in the areas of rape and anti-stereotyping measures. Here is the latest CEDAW report

    What these other things do not depict is specific sexual violence and sexual degradation of women and children.

    No the only depict objectification of and sexualization of children, graphic depiction of murder and disregard of peoples right to live, degradation and trivialization of human life. Thats just for fun.



    I'd like you to explain why you think that content is worthwhile and merits shutting down discussion by making spurious claims about the group complaining about it.

    I do not think this content is worth while, just like I think that "My super sweet sixteen" is pointless and is not worthwhile. The conclusion that, "I don't like it, it should not exist" is a weak one, why should it not exist, if you look at my original letter I praised the group for it's other efforts, and would welcome a dialogue, as we are having now, unfortunately I have yet to receive a reply.

    The only reason why this material is available at all is because of a legal loophole in Japan's laws. This game is not legal, the games are unregulated. Add: It's also not illegal to possess child pornography images.

    The idea of why child pornography is banned from a logical standpoint is that children to not comprehend the consent to release such images of themselves, therefore making it exploitation. Exactly how a drawing depicting it is legal is somewhat a gray area.

    The statements made by the "Equality Now" are not going to have any effect unless something can be done about the loophole in the lawm and misrepresenting them and encouraging people to write based on this is poor form at least, and is more likely to be an attempt to shut down them rather than the other way around.

    Just wait one second, I never encourage people to write to them, all I wanted was to have a proper civil discussion about it here, The article in which it was reported simply produced a method of which they could contact them, as is fitting, they never did encourage people to write in.



    If it is considered worse, it's of because it is a violation of the bodily integrity and autonomy of a person in forcing them to have sexual intercourse and other acts intended to degrade them without their consent, even worse when it's a child because not only do the other provisions apply but they are entitled to protection from adults due to their immaturity and inability to fully consent.


    Yes because this is worse the violation of your very existence itself isn't it?
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    Re: Feminist group proposing ban of Japanese "Rape simulator"

    Post  Psalter on Tue May 12, 2009 6:22 pm

    Skimmed everything in here and I have to say that I am opposed to feminists that are opposed to porn... you can't be both.

    On the other hand, the article above is the worst journalism I have ever read.

    Depiction of children in sexual acts, visual, is wrong from my POV. As a sexually abused child I can say with absolute certainty that pornography can be (and often is) a temporary release or a warm up for the real thing. A substitute of sorts. Offenders escalate.

    Now, I have masturbated (at length) to animated porn (self drawn)... this became real porn, I eventually had sex. My family, if they had seen me with animated porn, would have laughed, ridiculed me, never let me forget it... but they wouldn't have had me seek help like they would have if it had been animated pre-pubescent porn. That is just a jump off point.

    I am not getting my point across as well as I would like to... my point is that porn, animated or otherwise, should be censored for social standards. Rape porn should be illegal, animated child porn should be illegal. You can argue that it does not remove anyone's rights if it is simulated, but pornography is a visual representation of fantasy. Sometimes the fantasy is not enough.

    Games? Well, unless this game portrays the downside of rape and paedophilia, and unless it is not for gratuitous reasons, it is fantasy, thus it is pornography.
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    Re: Feminist group proposing ban of Japanese "Rape simulator"

    Post  superarmy on Tue May 12, 2009 6:30 pm

    On the other hand, the article above is the worst journalism I have ever read.

    It's more or less a site dedicated to getting the news of 2chan and /jp/, more of a blog than anything.

    As for the rest, to be quiet honest, the POV I'm taking is a hard one to defend, I do (as I mentioned) find this sort of game repulsive and disgusting that should be an example of society gone wrong, but there simply lacks a case to take it off shelves, there are no cases of it influencing harmful behavior IRL. And as a right-wing, free speech wielding, non-PC person, I find it hard to comprehend why a New York based group is asking for the banning of a Japanese game that has only been sanctioned for release in Japan. There are games which are distributed in English via the USA which should be far more boycott worthy(Namely: Virgin Roster:Shukketsubo(which I had the misfortune of playing, subsequently deleting after it caused me to vomit)and Bible Black).

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    Re: Feminist group proposing ban of Japanese "Rape simulator"

    Post  Diaz on Tue May 12, 2009 11:09 pm

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    Re: Feminist group proposing ban of Japanese "Rape simulator"

    Post  superarmy on Wed May 13, 2009 12:01 am

    Don't be too skeptical, operative word of "or" is important there. And did the CEDAW report comment about the laws in a negative way, No?. Japan has without a doubt updated it's previously dangerously outdated laws to a strict and clear standard.

    quote The Meeting of Directors from Ministries and Agencies Concerned on All Forms of Violence
    against Women, established under the Headquarters for the Promotion of Gender Equality, is engaged
    in deliberating on ways to promote actively measures and policies concerning violence against women
    in close cooperation among the administrative agencies concerned.
    b. Raising Social Awareness
    88. The Government has designated the two weeks from 12 to 25 November, which is the United
    Nations’ International Day for the Elimination of Violence against Women, as the period for the
    Campaign for Eliminating Violence against Women (decided on 5 June 2001 by the Headquarters for
    the Promotion of Gender Equality). The campaign aims to increase awareness and to educate people
    so that they will have respect for women’s human rights by, among other things, conducting a
    symposium on violence against women during this period in cooperation and collaboration with local
    governments, women’s groups and other related organizations.



    Are you referring to my points? I've explained why I think it's an issue, with those specific themes of sexual violence against women and children. The Equality Now group has also explained their concerns, Japan still has a long way to go before they address those issues. Nothing to do with likes or dislikes, rather a strong concern about the material and what it portrays and after reading a bit of it a bit more concern about the Japanese context which leads to these games being available.


    The point I continue to raise is it's a goddamn double standard between the glorification of murder and the glorification of rape. Do both, I would be happy and campaign for both, but when you are picking on one for politically and elitist reasons it's fucking hypocrisy.

    Not surprised you haven't got a reply as the post's falsehoods regarding the game encourage people to contact the organisation. I know what they are - the material is not legal there, but that it falls into a loophole in the legislation in Japan, the rape statistics are not comparable etc etc. They just forgot to check those things out while falling all over themselves to complain did they?


    Sorry, I shall now answer them as best I can. Actually they don't mention rape statistics, in fact it is truly hard to determine exactly what the current rape figures are. What I can say with relative certainty is that it is 6 times less than most other OECD countries, however this would imply it has risen due to the implementation of these new laws ( by comparing to the 2001 figures I quoted). So somewhat a point lost and gained for both sides of the argument. The reason they did not mention rape statistics is because (and I had a discussion with this with a host family whilst I was in Japan), Japans rape figures and speculated figures are simply far lower than expected, comparing to modern trends and thought that overexposure to "bad" influential media increases crime rates. I raised a theory of why this happens, relating that because it is somewhat more available to access the material through legal methods its buffers out the potential predators by leaving them playing these games and somewhat providing a sexual release vent to stop it occurring in real life. And unless you speak fluent Japanese reading through Japanese censorship laws is somewhat confusing and bewildering, even if you do understand it, but all games worldwide undergo rating in which the game content is moderated by an independent government agency ( I feel for the guy who has to do this), if they approved, it is legal in Japan.

    Have you any idea of what the content of those images are? They are not just snapshots, they often show children actually being abused. Consent is only part of the issue. "Child pornography is the consequence of the exploitation or sexual abuse perpetrated against a child. It can be defined as any means of depicting or promoting sexual abuse of a child, including print and/or audio, centered on sex acts or the genital organs of children." (from Wikipedia child abuse article). Graphical or electronic images are just a "back door" method of achieving the same aim. It's easy enough to manipulate an image just enough to circumvent the laws on child pornography which can and are then used as "legitimate" depictions.

    That argument is still up for debate among those who are un-PC enough to debate it. What is the harm in having restricted material that does not violate anybodies rights, it's one of those "where is the victim "cases.

    The post you put up did, they ask people if they are of mind to do so in among all the inflammatory language describing the group. Why is it fitting? Equality Now asked Amazon Japan to take the game off for sale. Did any of those people writing think about the fact Amazon is a commercial entity and contacting them about it and asking why they made that decision? Or the software developer? Well, we have the answer to that (it's no) and it's apparent the site just decided to demonise Equality Now for speaking out. I suppose that's the easy target to vent their spleen on.




    You can read about the specific complaints made by Equality Now in the previous article, and if you are of a mind you can contact them from their page.


    Anybody who wanted to make a comment could have easily found their contact details, anybody motivated enough can easily navigate the webpage to "Contact Us"

    And although I speak enough Japanese to converse, writing is not my strong suit, thus I'm not elitist enough to ignorantly send letters in English. It is also notable that the companies did originally reply with "It's none of your business, why do you care, we don't even sell the game there". Only after constant media pressure, sensationalism and a flannel of weak excuses did the companies fold.

    Try reading the first sentence again. I am not the one arguing degrees of worseness, I was arguing against the use of distraction onto other issues instead of dealing with this material. "If" is the operative word there.

    I apologize.

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    Re: Feminist group proposing ban of Japanese "Rape simulator"

    Post  Diaz on Wed May 13, 2009 2:26 pm

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    Re: Feminist group proposing ban of Japanese "Rape simulator"

    Post  superarmy on Wed May 13, 2009 11:23 pm

    don't know if many people understand the real issues as to why groups fight for equality for women, my impression is they think it's about who cooks dinner one night. It's not, it's about women being selectively targeted for discrimination and social structures designed to perpetrate this. Significant amount of women even now are just chattles, unable to own property, have the right to an education etc and can be sold as the 12 year old was to a Saudi businessman. Men never have that issue, they are even favoured in utero just by virtue of having an Y chromosome whereas the foetus with the X chromosome can and is aborted because they are the 'wrong' sex. I don't have time to tell you what sort of social problems that causes unfortunately. Even where some measures have been instituted, social structures and attitudes die hard.

    I agree completely, so why is Japan and it's low sexual assault rates a target over fully discriminatory Arabic societies? I acknowledged before teh group had done good work, these were the areas which stood out for me.

    And did you notice the reports were different? One was a states report and the other the consideration of the states report. Moreover there was no praise, it was a report on various measures taken since the last report some six years ago. The big question is whether those changes will actually influence any real change. They have introduced a gang rape law but in it you either have to prove conspiracy or injury or death making the barrier just as high as before. Provided the perpretrator(s) are careful not to injure the woman too much, they get off scot-free because consent remains immaterial no matter how many men the woman is forced to take on while they are raped. Campaigns, unfortunately can just end up being window dressing unless measures are taken to achieve real changes in social and legal structures that uphold rights of women.


    It's also somewhat a different approach from Western civilizations, designed to regulate between false and outlandish rape claims and legitimate ones.

    Could you please stop with the red herring argument.

    It appears we have reached an impasse, I think my argument is somewhat legitimate, the concept of a double standard is an obvious parallel that can be easily drawn
    Rant:I too, like the glorification of murder, yet hate to see violence or degrading acts of woman depicted in any way. This comes into conflict with my logical side which says' "Both are bad, you're just more conditioned to one than the other, clouding your judgment. Nobody can begin to truly look at this objectively the way modern culture and history has been shaped". The Japanese are a very pacifist nation (post WWII), with very calm and "alternative looking" people. Some one is killed for killing another, then he is killed for killing him, how can that sort of logic lead to any form of peace. You cannot separate such obvious double standards. It is not a red herring, its is a legitimate, awkward and somewhat shameful parallel on society as a whole./rant

    The game itself trivialises rape, let alone the issues with the 'school girl' daughters. Nice to know it's amusing (that's sarcasm, BTW). Even a movie scene depicting rape is in context of the whole story and theme of the film, which is why it tends to be seen as more legitimate. I have difficulty with the game being removed from any sort of context that would moderate those themes.


    See above.

    Yes they do. "With violence towards women and girls far less common in Japan than in the USA or Europe, it would appear it is they who should be following the example of Japan…(has link)" And they use the same argument you did.


    Sorry, I was referring to the Equality Now article, statistics help make a solid case, yet it's something that they purposely dodged.

    And a hostile legal environment that makes it difficult to make a legal claim proving rape (which is how statistically rape rates statistically are measured) wouldn't affect it? Not one of you considered that cross-country measures are not comparable unless you are comparing the same thing.


    What hostile as in it's not like western courts where its word vs word? Where they rely on physical evidence to prove trauma that is associated with rape?


    And what happens with censorship when the material is not covered by any law? My understanding is that the government does not restrict this material, and my further research shows that it wasn't just available on Amazon Japan at all - it came up for sale on Amazon US which means that censorship laws application covers more than just that nation and makes things a bit more complicated than that. The way they had it available as being through a the manufacturer would tend to subvert any censorship that might exist. It's not clear what, if any rating was put on this material.


    Game over, that was sold on not by a company but a private citizen who tried to separately sell the game independent of the company. Furthermore it was this event that brought it any media attention and is why the group is going for it. The game had been out for two entire years beforehand. The group being the critical watchdog of human rights were following the case from the beginning, right? Wrong, they never once mentioned these sorts of games and the fact they picked this one just goes to prove a point they have simply ran into this for publicity and have not fully research the Visual Novel concept as a whole. If they had, they would be emailing a company called jlist who distribute similar games, TRANSLATED INTO ENGLISH, DISTRIBUTED WORLDWIDE. The fact they have not attacked the English ones, which have a far greater global effect, proves they have no idea what they are talking about.

    There is a correlation between child pornography and the act of child abuse. Given they use it as a turn on, I'd say rather than preventing it might just make acting on those fantasies more likely.

    You can't account for regional surveys to be accurate when extrapolating to other countries.

    We are debating, I'm posting legitimate dissent to that point of view (very non-PC of me to criticise the claims isn't it?). Hiding behind the barrier of a claim that it's just un-PC doesn't serve as shield from legitimate criticism. It seems that being PC, rather than an use of language issue is being used as an excuse to say or do anything and then not justify the stance. The argument for covering graphical/electronic images is that manipulation or changing the images doesn't change the nature of them. You can colour it in, present as a cartoon and it's still the same thing. The laws are designed to stop back door methods of circumventing the law. The context of the very real images that really do cause harm still applies.

    Again, the case of a crime with no victim holds. I never said that manipulation of original Child Pornography images is not CP. Drawing it from scratch on a pad is merely artistic and democratic freedom. And the law is shaky, there are cases where it is held, and cases where it is not.

    The difference is that the site misrepresented the complainer's position and even you admit the post is totally biased. Then they encourage people to bomb them with emails. Slight difference there.

    Indeed it is completely biased as that is part of their MO, like Obama loving on MSNBC or Bush loving on Fox News. And they simply state, if you are of right mind you can contact them. Sly indeed but still rather slight.

    Poor things, I'm not convinced that arguing the company is a poor little defenceless thing defending themselves by an onslaught of horrid abuse is quite the way to characterise the events. It could actually be that the points made are valid if you sift through all the junk claims surrounding this.

    You seriously think they have seen the error in their ways and will never do something like this again. It's sheer PR. Distributors don't want to be seen as the bad guys and the developers know that it won't affect the sales due to the fact that their fanbase will buy it anyway....

    Diaz
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    Re: Feminist group proposing ban of Japanese "Rape simulator"

    Post  Diaz on Thu May 14, 2009 10:42 pm

    "I agree completely, so why is Japan and it's low sexual assault rates a target over fully discriminatory Arabic societies? I acknowledged before teh group had done good work, these were the areas which stood out for me."

    Even you admit the rape (conviction) rates in Japan are way too low, the reason for this is the legal environment which limits the ability of women (or men for that matter) to gain an conviction. I touched on the point to explain why groups like this advocate for the rights of women, while I'd love to get into Arabic societies and work of groups to improve their situation this redirects from the main topic. It appears that you are suggesting degrees of worseness, I'd say merely that you can have more than one thing that you are working on at a time and that discrimination elsewhere does not excuse discrimination in Japan or New Zealand nor even the USA. Perpetuating a culture of rape, making rape a game thereby trivialising it, promoting more and more extreme themes using violence and rape simulations and the effect this might have in desensitising a person to that violence and rape are all legitimate issues to be discussed, especially in the context of social norms that support entrenched attitudes and a legal environment that limits the rights of victims of rape to gain justice.

    The fact is this game is product of Japanese society, along with the others of its genre like 'battle Layer'. These games are exclusively produced for men, like the porn industry is basically by men, for men (even so-called lesbian porn is made to men's tastes from what I've seen of it). It's not like they are producing this game (or any games) showing men being raped and their testicles ripped off for women to get their jollies.

    "It's also somewhat a different approach from Western civilizations, designed to regulate between false and outlandish rape claims and legitimate ones."

    Oh dear, are you suggesting because most developed nations consider consent as part of hearing a claim of rape that most claims are 'false and outlandish'? Not so IMO, it shouldn't be necessary to prove injury, as it's quite easy for a person to be threatened and overpowered by use of a weapon and threats of force and then consequently be forced to submit without actual need to cause physical harm. You don't need to be beaten up to be raped. I have my concerns about the level of false rape complaints and weak cases reaching the courts but that is more a matter that the police need to strengthen their investigation prior to that point. Notably, false rape claims nor weak cases that are thrown out through lack of evidence or inconsistent witness testimony do not make it into the statistics. After reading the article (below) I'd agree the approach is different, but would dispute this is for false rape but rather social institutions which mean women are not only discouraged from reporting rape but face legal hurdles as well.

    Little sympathy for rape victims in Japan.
    A man molests a young woman sitting next to him on a Japanese train, drags her to a restroom and rapes her while she sobs. Some 40 fellow passengers fail to intervene. The case, which came to light with the suspect's arrest last month, shocked the public and prompted soul-searching in the media, which said passengers may have told themselves it was a lovers' fight but should have helped the woman.

    Activists and lawyers say sentiment towards rape victims remains chilly in a society where many feel the woman may have led the man on, that she is lying or that she could have fought back. Campaigns by women's groups and legal changes have helped make it easier for rape victims in Japan to speak up and take legal action against perpetrators, but many still stay silent out of shame and fear of criticism. "There is still widespread belief in 'rape myths'," said Masayo Niwa, an official at the Centre for Education and Support for Women, Japan, referring to the perception, contrary to law, that only assaults by strangers can be defined as "rape".

    "Victims don't report cases because they think society can't be trusted to believe them," she said.

    Some victims' support groups estimate that rape cases in Japan amounted to more than 10 times the National Police Agency's official figure of 1,948 last year. Sex crimes against bar hostesses or other women working in entertainment districts are treated especially lightly, and are seldom reported to support groups, activists say. Japanese property developer Joji Obara was sentenced to life in prison last month for serial rape of eight women and for drugging, raping and killing Australian bar hostess Carita Ridgway. But he was cleared of killing British bar hostess Lucie Blackman in a case that attracted international media attention. "They did not take me and my boyfriend seriously," Samantha Termini, Ridgway's older sister and herself a former bar hostess, told a news conference of her initial efforts to get police to investigate Carita's death.

    SERIOUS CRIME: Some lawyers say prison sentences and compensation fail to adequately reflect victims' sufferings -- a sign that rape continues to be viewed lightly in Japan's male-dominated society. Japan's top government spokesman in 2003 was quoted as telling reporters in an off-the-record briefing that some women were asking to be raped by dressing provocatively -- a remark that outraged many but failed to dent his political clout. A legal revision in 2005 raised prison sentences for rape to a minimum three years and a maximum 20 years, but critics argue that the punishment is still too light considering the minimum sentence for robbery is five years....
    http://www.reuters.com/article/healthNews/idUST17815620070515

    "It appears we have reached an impasse"


    Your claim of double standard is an assertion, not a justification for your stance. Introducing other material, unless it is truly relevant and supports your case in some way only serves as a redirection method which means either other topics end up being what is discussed or the person arguing you has to try and cover multiple targets. It does end up as an impasse, it's hard to argue against assertions.

    "Sorry, I was referring to the Equality Now article, statistics help make a solid case, yet it's something that they purposely dodged."


    No they don't, because the rates are not comparable. Nor do they reflect the real rates of rape in Japan.

    "What hostile as in it's not like western courts where its word vs word? Where they rely on physical evidence to prove trauma that is associated with rape?"

    A rape case in western courts does not solely rely on consent at all. It's part of the consideration, along with forensic evidence (you do know that you are seen by a police doctor after being raped don't you?) and other supporting evidence.

    "Game over, that was sold on not by a company but a private citizen who tried to separately sell the game independent of the company."

    Is that right? It was third party seller sourcing from the manufacturer according to newspaper sources. Given I've seen nothing to suggest it was a private individual selling it, I wouldn't think it's game over just yet. In any case, the material was available for sale on those Amazon sites.

    "Furthermore it was this event that brought it any media attention and is why the group is going for it."

    It was Equality Now that brought the issue up. I think you'll find that Amazon, a major retailer was selling it in the US and that's what they complained about, subsequently other countries also pulled it. Knowledge of something is all important, I wouldn't be aware of this except for your post. Having the game as part of what must be hundreds or thousands available on Amazon would make it very difficult to find. I wouldn't be surprised to hear there are other distributors of games around, the fact is no one person or organisation can keep up with every single game sale worldwide. Your setting them an impossible task if they were expected to cover every problem that exists. I also think if you bother to go looking you'll find lots of complaints about one game or another from one human rights groups or another.

    It's also pertinent to note that Illusion (the manufacturer themselves) have said these games were not supposed to be sold outside Japan and secondly, it appears to me at least a lot of the publicity generated is from the howls of outrage that an organisation dared complain about the material.

    "You can't account for regional surveys to be accurate when extrapolating to other countries.

    They are not "regional surveys", some of what I posted was commentary (with links to the source) and also sociological research into sex offenders and their use of child pornography. This shows a correlation between the use of child porn and offending, content is a risk factor. This is rather different from comparison of international statistics on crime. Think of it this way, if you become aroused what do you want to do about it? If there is the opportunity to slake that arousal with another person whether engineered or not there would you use this opportunity?

    "I never said that manipulation of original Child Pornography images is not CP. Drawing it from scratch on a pad is merely artistic and democratic freedom. And the law is shaky, there are cases where it is held, and cases where it is not."

    That's because there is allowance for artistic freedom, not that the law is shaky, It depends on the context of who made the images, the content and where they are shown. Generally those types of images that can be judged that way don't reach the level of child porn I've heard of (such as children being abused). The rationale for banning graphic or electronic representations is still valid.

    "Distributors don't want to be seen as the bad guys and the developers know that it won't affect the sales due to the fact that their fanbase will buy it anyway...."

    Glad that one is settled, they will carry on developing other games and life goes on.

    Diaz
    Nymph
    Nymph

    Re: Feminist group proposing ban of Japanese "Rape simulator"

    Post  Diaz on Fri May 15, 2009 3:00 pm

    Blank


    Last edited by Diaz on Tue Mar 30, 2010 1:27 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    master5o1
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    Re: Feminist group proposing ban of Japanese "Rape simulator"

    Post  master5o1 on Sat May 16, 2009 6:00 pm

    journalism vs diaryism

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    Re: Feminist group proposing ban of Japanese "Rape simulator"

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