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    Triumph of ignorance and scaremongering

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    canterella
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    Triumph of ignorance and scaremongering

    Post  canterella on Mon May 04, 2009 9:28 am

    Schools refuse cancer vaccine
    By REBECCA PALMER - The Dominion Post

    Dozens of schools have opted out of a mass immunisation programme to protect girls against cervical cancer.

    Girls as young as 12 started receiving the vaccinations at schools in February. Fifty adverse reactions have been reported so far this year, with 10 reports of fainting and one case of an allergic reaction.

    The previous government said the death rate from cervical cancer would be halved in future decades by the $177 million programme over five years to provide free immunisation.

    Each year there are 180 diagnoses of cervical cancer and about 60 women die from it.

    Greg Simmons, the Health Ministry's chief adviser for population health, confirmed 78 schools had declined to take part in the programme about 5 per cent of those eligible. The number could include schools that chose not to take part for logistical reasons, such as small rural schools, he said.

    The figures exclude Canterbury, which does not have a school-based network. Instead, girls can be vaccinated through their doctors.

    The programme has been controversial, with moral campaigners objecting to vaccinating girls against a cancer they can get only through sexual activity. Others have expressed concern about adverse reactions.

    Women's Health Action has said the programme was introduced too fast and called for an urgent review.

    The privacy commissioner has also been investigating complaints about schools handing over school roll data to district health boards.

    Secondary Principals Association president Peter Gall said some religious schools would be among those that had opted out of the programme. In others, the board of trustees might have decided there was not enough information or a lack of good information about the vaccine, he said.

    School Trustees Association president Lorraine Kerr said some of the concerns schools had might be about access to school records.

    A Hutt Valley District Health Board paper notes that two schools in the Wellington region have refused to take part in the programme, and that consent rates vary by school.

    "Some decline rates are relatively high, especially for year 8 children and at low-decile schools.

    "Common reasons cited for declining the vaccination are around the age and the sexual naivete of the girl and the duration of the protection."

    Dr Simmons said 1399 schools had been involved in the programme in the first term. The National Immunisation Register showed at least 52,887 doses of the Gardasil vaccine had been administered. Not all district health boards had submitted information to the register, so the actual uptake would be higher.

    Girls who could not receive the vaccine through their schools could get it from their family doctor.

    The ministry did not know the national decline rates among girls. That information was held by individual district health boards.

    Girls under 16 have to return a consent form signed by parents or guardians before getting the vaccine at school. Those 16 and over can give their own consent.

    Dr Simmons said 80 adverse reactions had been reported since the vaccine was first licensed in New Zealand. Most were minor, such as pain at the injection site, nausea and a raised temperature. There had been one report of "mild anaphylaxis [allergic reaction] with rapid recovery" and 10 reports of fainting.

    Privacy Commissioner Marie Shroff said her office had been working with the Health Ministry and the School Trustees Association to check complaints about personal information in rolls being given out.

    "We will be hoping to find out what went wrong the first time around, and how the programme could be managed better in future."

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/2381068/Schools-refuse-cancer-vaccine

    i'M FUCKING SICK OF THE FUCKING 'RIGHT' OF PARENTS TO BE STUPID.
    sorry for the caps

    Diaz
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    Re: Triumph of ignorance and scaremongering

    Post  Diaz on Mon May 04, 2009 11:30 am

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    Re: Triumph of ignorance and scaremongering

    Post  canterella on Mon May 04, 2009 1:47 pm

    Diaz wrote:Absolutely....and you notice the two main groups there.

    One, the religious ones where for ideological reasons they repudiate the science, and two the low-decile ones where while they might not be unintelligent, there is limited ability to understand the science and sift through the poorly crafted propaganda (itself produced for ideological reasons) and assess the merits of the vaccine for itself.

    Hep B is also sexually transmitted but has dodged the charges of the children being sexually naive and young by and large, but it suits in this case to make these charges. Further, they cite 10 cases of fainting but as we know, that isn't necessarily due to direct cause and effect from the vaccine - it might just be that a needle is involved. I have a friend whose son cut their foot at school and on arriving and seeing the wound keeled over and fainted (actually needed to be carted off to hospital with a worse injury!!). You wouldn't then attribute his would as the direct cause, it was her reaction to the blood that caused the faint.

    One thing you must watch is this video, this relates to a death of a baby from whooping cough over in Australia.

    This poignantly illustrates the propagandising of pro-disease groups. After hearing the heart rending story of how her baby was ripped from her by disease I was gob smacked to hear the anti-vaccination propagandist state that "people don't die of these diseases" and promote misinformation such as greatly exaggerating the potential side-effects of vaccines and claiming unrelated disorders like autism are caused by it even though not only have vaccines have no link to increased rates of the disorder but that we know the causes - largely genetic, and if an environmental influence this is certainly pre-natal, not post-natal. Still doesn't stop them promoting their ill-informed ideas. The 'side-effects' could be treated with homeopathy and herbs. Just a wee bit unfortunate for them that even if there were attempts to hide horrendous effects from vaccines, this could not be hidden, the excess disability and deaths would be self-evident, much as disease disability and death are self-evident.

    Channel 7 - "Sunday Night" Video: A Mothers Choice. http://au.tv.yahoo.com/sunday-night/video/#fop


    Yeah, I fainted on a bus once (it was too hot and too crowded) and twice in a hospital while visiting friends there - OMG! What will the juju medicine brigade say of that? As for the side-effects - I'm sure some people have died after taking Paracetamol, just as some have died after eating kiwifruit or peanuts or drinking some 'health shop' concoction or being stung by a bee. There is just a small percentage of global population who can have an adverse and in some cases lethal reaction to just about anything they ingest, breathe, drink or inject.
    Sadly there are some 'educated' (not necessarily intelligent though) parents who willingly avoid vaccinations because they think of some conspiracy by the pharmaceutical industry to poison the population. Would be interesting to send them to a third world country where they can use their alternative healing remedies on themselves.
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    superarmy
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    Re: Triumph of ignorance and scaremongering

    Post  superarmy on Mon May 04, 2009 5:14 pm

    Result of this?

    People who didn't take it stand a higher chance of dying.

    And nothing of great value will be lost. Evolution at work.
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    Psalter
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    Re: Triumph of ignorance and scaremongering

    Post  Psalter on Mon May 04, 2009 5:27 pm

    superarmy wrote:Result of this?

    People who didn't take it stand a higher chance of dying.

    And nothing of great value will be lost. Evolution at work.

    Social decimation =/= genetics.
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    superarmy
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    Re: Triumph of ignorance and scaremongering

    Post  superarmy on Mon May 04, 2009 5:35 pm

    Psalter wrote:
    superarmy wrote:Result of this?

    People who didn't take it stand a higher chance of dying.

    And nothing of great value will be lost. Evolution at work.

    Social decimation =/= genetics.

    Sigh, but it seems so fitting.

    Can someone explain to me the religious idea of vaccination is bad?
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    Psalter
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    Re: Triumph of ignorance and scaremongering

    Post  Psalter on Mon May 04, 2009 6:58 pm

    superarmy wrote:
    Psalter wrote:
    superarmy wrote:Result of this?

    People who didn't take it stand a higher chance of dying.

    And nothing of great value will be lost. Evolution at work.

    Social decimation =/= genetics.

    Sigh, but it seems so fitting.

    Can someone explain to me the religious idea of vaccination is bad?

    No, sorry, I can't. I am something of a God-botherer and I just don't see the justification.

    But, I attended uni with a hippy vegetarian type who didn't want GM or GE foods because she would get that DNA in her. She also didn't believe in transplants and blood transfusions for the same reason.

    I tried explaining to her that her DNA is her DNA and that everything she eats has DNA... she wouldn't listen.

    Diaz
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    Re: Triumph of ignorance and scaremongering

    Post  Diaz on Mon May 04, 2009 7:10 pm

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    Re: Triumph of ignorance and scaremongering

    Post  Diaz on Mon May 04, 2009 7:16 pm

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    canterella
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    Re: Triumph of ignorance and scaremongering

    Post  canterella on Mon May 04, 2009 7:20 pm

    Is it true that the polio vaccination used to be compulsory in NZ in the 50s? (or 60s)?

    Polio has been wiped out since. good old times.

    No such case with today's vaccines where parents are able to make 'an informed choice' and that's why we see a resurgence of whooping cough every bloody winter!
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    superarmy
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    Re: Triumph of ignorance and scaremongering

    Post  superarmy on Mon May 04, 2009 8:01 pm

    I guess after seeing the news tonight, my biggest gripe is the schools who denied the choice to their pupils. As much as I love to call all the people who choose not to take it idiots at least they have the right too. The Principals/PTA's who decided to make the parents judgment for them are nothing but bigots.
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    Lynz
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    Re: Triumph of ignorance and scaremongering

    Post  Lynz on Tue May 05, 2009 9:04 am

    I received the polio vaccine in the 60's. You were lined up in the corridor and filed past the nurse, got your sip and returned to class. From memory it was a two or three course vaccine spread over some years. I don't know if it was compulsory but I do remember our parents expected we would get it. Same as virtually all children were taken to Plunket where other vaccines would be given. Parents were more trusting of experts. And they'd grown up seeing the effects of the diseases their children were being inoculated against.

    The deaths were real to them. As were the other effects. My father for instance, suffered polio as a youth. While not a severe case, he was fit enough for Military service in the Pacific in WW2, he did have lingering effects his whole life.

    Who here knows of a recent case of someone living their whole life in an Iron Lung? For that matter, how many even know what one is?

    Sadly, after being for all intents wiped out in developed Countries, in some places, polio is making a comeback.

    Whooping Cough and Diphtheria were regular killers. They too are reemerging.

    And all this can be put down to stupid parents.

    Diaz
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    Re: Triumph of ignorance and scaremongering

    Post  Diaz on Tue May 05, 2009 1:10 pm

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    Tikva
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    Re: Triumph of ignorance and scaremongering

    Post  Tikva on Thu May 07, 2009 9:53 am

    Firstly, I have not been scaremongered, and whilst I admit to ignorance in many things, I have actually looked into both sides of this issue, read the information 'for' and 'against' the HPV Vaccine, and from that made an informed choice. To label people ignorant or the victims of scaremongering just because they don't do something that you, the Government, or the Medical Community tell them that they should do, says more about you than them.

    It's all about choice, and just because some Parents, in discussion with their child/ren, have CHOSEN not to have this particular vaccine, does not make their choice any less valid than those who have chosen to have it. My kids have had all of their vaccinations, including the Meningitis ones, so I'm not anti-vaccination in any way. Yet in this instance, I and my daughter both agreed not to get the HPV Shots for her. From the perspective of a Parent, this whole vaccine seems to have been sprung on us out of nowhere, with hardly any mention of this wonderful 'breakthrough' in the Media prior to the vaccination scheme being introduced. To be honest, I think I'd heard a little something on the news once about a vaccine against cervical cancer, but after that there was nothing until the scheme was introduced, and it was then that I learned that it was actually being used. That's not to say that there wasn't other information in the Media ~ I am speaking from my own personal experience here. I don't want to get into the science of this with you, because I'm not a scientist, or a Doctor ~ I'm just a concerned mother, who doesn't believe everything that she is fed by the Government, Doctor's, Scientists, and of course, let's not forget the Drug Companies! Yes, I dare to question them, and why the hell not????

    To take what I considered a risk, just to give my daughter 5 years protection from HPV, was something I chose not to do.

    How long does the vaccine last for?

    Vaccine studies have been running for 5 years so far and demonstrate that the vaccine provides very good protection for at least this length of time with no sign of waning. There is currently no evidence of a need for a booster. Ongoing research will continue to monitor the duration of the vaccine protection.

    It was this that was the deciding factor for me. Sure, I realise it may last a lot longer, but at this time, 5 years is all that they're sure of.

    So, 60 women a year die of cervical cancer. Yes, that's sad, and devastating for the families of those women. But what about the 600 men in New Zealand that die each year from Prostate Cancer??? Maybe all the money spent on this vaccination scheme could have been put to better use by trying to reduce the Prostate Cancer statistics.
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    Anjewel
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    Re: Triumph of ignorance and scaremongering

    Post  Anjewel on Thu May 07, 2009 10:03 am

    It is all about choice at the end of the day...If you did it, great, if you didn't, then that is great too...Good on those who chose to immunise their daughters, and good on those, who chose not too...Balance is everything...


    Last edited by Anjewel on Thu May 07, 2009 10:04 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : my commas were in the wrong spot..)
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    Psalter
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    Re: Triumph of ignorance and scaremongering

    Post  Psalter on Thu May 07, 2009 5:39 pm

    Tikva wrote:Firstly, I have not been scaremongered, and whilst I admit to ignorance in many things, I have actually looked into both sides of this issue, read the information 'for' and 'against' the HPV Vaccine, and from that made an informed choice. To label people ignorant or the victims of scaremongering just because they don't do something that you, the Government, or the Medical Community tell them that they should do, says more about you than them.

    It's all about choice, and just because some Parents, in discussion with their child/ren, have CHOSEN not to have this particular vaccine, does not make their choice any less valid than those who have chosen to have it. My kids have had all of their vaccinations, including the Meningitis ones, so I'm not anti-vaccination in any way. Yet in this instance, I and my daughter both agreed not to get the HPV Shots for her. From the perspective of a Parent, this whole vaccine seems to have been sprung on us out of nowhere, with hardly any mention of this wonderful 'breakthrough' in the Media prior to the vaccination scheme being introduced. To be honest, I think I'd heard a little something on the news once about a vaccine against cervical cancer, but after that there was nothing until the scheme was introduced, and it was then that I learned that it was actually being used. That's not to say that there wasn't other information in the Media ~ I am speaking from my own personal experience here. I don't want to get into the science of this with you, because I'm not a scientist, or a Doctor ~ I'm just a concerned mother, who doesn't believe everything that she is fed by the Government, Doctor's, Scientists, and of course, let's not forget the Drug Companies! Yes, I dare to question them, and why the hell not????

    To take what I considered a risk, just to give my daughter 5 years protection from HPV, was something I chose not to do.

    How long does the vaccine last for?

    Vaccine studies have been running for 5 years so far and demonstrate that the vaccine provides very good protection for at least this length of time with no sign of waning. There is currently no evidence of a need for a booster. Ongoing research will continue to monitor the duration of the vaccine protection.

    It was this that was the deciding factor for me. Sure, I realise it may last a lot longer, but at this time, 5 years is all that they're sure of.

    So, 60 women a year die of cervical cancer. Yes, that's sad, and devastating for the families of those women. But what about the 600 men in New Zealand that die each year from Prostate Cancer??? Maybe all the money spent on this vaccination scheme could have been put to better use by trying to reduce the Prostate Cancer statistics.

    So, there is no evidence of the vaccine causing adverse effects, the vaccine shows no sign of waning after 5 years and not taking the vaccine is an informed decision? I don't see that sorry.

    Prostate cancer? Well, it is relevant but unfortunately it is not as easily prevented as cervical cancer... so it is not really a relevant point.

    Lastly, the point is not that parents are victims of scaremongering and ignorance, it is that schools (via BOT) have become swayed by scaremongering and ignorance... essentially removing personal choice... the very thing you are speaking in favour of.
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    Re: Triumph of ignorance and scaremongering

    Post  Tikva on Thu May 07, 2009 11:04 pm

    i'M FUCKING SICK OF THE FUCKING 'RIGHT' OF PARENTS TO BE STUPID.

    Well, as far as I am concerned, whilst the article quoted was directed at Schools and BOT's being swayed, the above comment was very, very clearly aimed at Parents. So, if a Parent chooses not to do something that the person who made the above quote believes they should do, then they are stupid. Superiority Complex, anyone?

    I don't know about you, Psalter, but an informed decision is one that is made after researching and looking at both sides of the issue at hand, and then making a choice. So yes, I did make an informed choice. Just because you disagree with my reasoning does not make it an uninformed one.

    And maybe Prostate Cancer would be as preventable as Cervical Cancer if as much money had been spent on research as has been spent on Cancer's that only women get.

    I'm not sure who in this thread has children, but I suspect that those, such as yourself, might view thing quite differently when it is your children that such choices have to be made for.
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    Re: Triumph of ignorance and scaremongering

    Post  debs on Thu May 07, 2009 11:37 pm

    Hmmm, living rurally where we have never been offered any vaccinations in our school because it wasn't logistically feasible I don't see really that its an issue that certain schools have opted out.

    I have never been a fan of bringing them into schools in the first place, I also dispute that removing them from those particular school means that they are removing that option from parents. They should still be able to take there children to there GP or practice nurse and have them done there if they choose. I would be disappointed though if I felt that the schools were feeding parents misinformation. After all the best place to receive medical advice is from medical personal (IMO). Not websites or educators.

    I am the mother of a 10 nearly 11 yr old and I will admit to still being undecided and feeling grateful that I don't have to make that choice just yet. I was one of only 1 or 2 in my community to not have my kids vaccinated with the MenzB immunisation. I did do my research and I did speak to several Dr's and nurse's and received such a mixed response from them at that time and then after talking to my daughters neurologist I decided against it and have always been very happy with that decision. I have never felt the need to sway anyone else though. However my kids have received the rest of the current immunisation programme.

    I do understand peoples concerns though about immunisations, its one of the hardest things to do as a new mum, take your perfectly healthy child to the Dr and put them through that, but as someone who has a good friend who lost her mum far too young to cervical cancer, well I get wanting to prevent someone I love going through that.

    This immunisation will be no different to the others, my husband and I will talk with my GP and with our daughters. And possibly other medical professionals and make my decision then. And if and when the time comes, I will go to my practice nurse and have them done there.

    Diaz
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    Re: Triumph of ignorance and scaremongering

    Post  Diaz on Fri May 08, 2009 12:45 am

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    canterella
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    Re: Triumph of ignorance and scaremongering

    Post  canterella on Fri May 08, 2009 7:25 am

    Tikva wrote:
    i'M FUCKING SICK OF THE FUCKING 'RIGHT' OF PARENTS TO BE STUPID.

    Well, as far as I am concerned, whilst the article quoted was directed at Schools and BOT's being swayed, the above comment was very, very clearly aimed at Parents. So, if a Parent chooses not to do something that the person who made the above quote believes they should do, then they are stupid. Superiority Complex, anyone?

    I don't know about you, Psalter, but an informed decision is one that is made after researching and looking at both sides of the issue at hand, and then making a choice. So yes, I did make an informed choice. Just because you disagree with my reasoning does not make it an uninformed one.

    And maybe Prostate Cancer would be as preventable as Cervical Cancer if as much money had been spent on research as has been spent on Cancer's that only women get.

    I'm not sure who in this thread has children, but I suspect that those, such as yourself, might view thing quite differently when it is your children that such choices have to be made for.

    How wrong you are Tikva. I have two children, both girls, one is approaching the age for Gardasil vaccination and I'll get her to do it. I don't want to kick myself later in life if she gets cervical cancer and I could have done one thing to prevent it, but I haven't.
    And I don't make my decisions based on anecdotal 'evidence' of certain adverse side effects from some obscure 'parents know-all' websites on the net, but from scientific advice.
    I don't see what the issue of prostate cancer has to do with this either. silent
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    Re: Triumph of ignorance and scaremongering

    Post  debs on Fri May 08, 2009 9:39 am

    to be clear while I don't like medical immunisations in schools etc...I certainly understand the need for it. Its a sad fact of live that we need to make it easier for the masses or it wont happen.

    I personally would like balance too, but the reality is that the anti brigade are often completely insane and the information is so hard to sift through because so much of it is shit. I also have an issue with people who blindly give vaccinations because they are told too. I personally support anyone who at least tries to look into it more.

    And at this stage with regard to this vaccine, I have yet to hear honest compelling medical evidence against this.

    Diaz
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    Re: Triumph of ignorance and scaremongering

    Post  Diaz on Fri May 08, 2009 12:49 pm

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    Re: Triumph of ignorance and scaremongering

    Post  Tikva on Fri May 08, 2009 10:41 pm

    When I have researched both sides of this issue, I deliberately stayed away from any website that was not a medically or scientifically well known one. I read articles on the FDA and CDC websites, as well as a couple of others that I forget the names of. After reading the scientific information provided on those websites, there was one that rang the alarm bells, for me anyway.

    I wonder if it's possible that someone can 'spot' what it was in the article that started those those bells ringing.........

    Diaz
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    Re: Triumph of ignorance and scaremongering

    Post  Diaz on Sat May 09, 2009 12:55 am

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    Psalter
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    Re: Triumph of ignorance and scaremongering

    Post  Psalter on Sat May 09, 2009 11:16 am

    -HPV Vaccine Protects Against 10 "Other" Strains. "The new evidence demonstrates a variable degree of efficacy against HPV types 31, 33, 35, 39, 45, 51, 52, 56, 58, and 59. These 10 HPV types are responsible for >20% of cervical cancer cases worldwide. http://www.imwr.com/issues/articles/2007-11_24.asp
    -Efficacy and Safety of the Quadrivalent HPV Vaccine http://infectious-diseases.jwatch.org/cgi/content/full/2007/509/1
    -FDA Approves Expanded Uses for Gardasil to Include Preventing Certain Vulvar and Vaginal Cancers
    http://www.fda.gov/bbs/topics/NEWS/2008/NEW01885.html

    So, in effect, the vaccine potentially(best case scenario)offers protection against 90% of cervical cancer?

    Sorry Tikva, I can't see what got you concerned.

    I'm not sure who in this thread has children, but I suspect that those, such as yourself, might view thing quite differently when it is your children that such choices have to be made for.

    This is a cowardly tack to take in debate. It is tantamount to saying "if you don't have kids, you can't have an opinion" which is wrong... so wrong.

    I haven't actively researched Gardasil, I haven't done a single search to back up my support. But I have read every article on SC and here that has been presented pro and con. I place these articles under the critical thinking microscope and ask "who is saying this? what qualifies them to say this? is what they say supported by evidence? (and most importantly) why are the saying this, is there an agenda?". Detractors of the vaccine have always fallen short in this test.

    Now don't get sensitive and hostile, I detected a little of that in your last post.

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